Why would you ever recommend Magness and Marcus?
Also Tinman isn't too easy. It's not enough high intensity for elites, fine for HS and non elites. All the moderate stuff has beat down their runners to injury, something has to give.
You lost me when you recommended listening to Jonathan Marcus. That is not possible.
Legit question - what are good modern sources of information regarding training? Outside of Tinman, what other recommendations do y’all have and pros/cons of the sources? For example, I’m not familiar with Jon Marcus, why do people recommend avoiding that podcast?
It is hardly discussed because LetsRun has some sort of protection agreement with Marcus and Magness in that criticism is not allowed. If you listen to any of their podcasts they talk over their guests and don’t let them elaborate. Instead they fill the podcast with their own ideas while are often either common knowledge (and they act like it’s completely revolutionary), completely redundant little details that they talk about for 10-15 minutes, or theory that is just not an optimal way to train the body.
As an example. A thread posted here early today critized Jon Marcus’s workout of 2x 1 hour at half marathon pace. That workout is quite impossible for any competitive runner.
If you want some good information read something like jack daniels running formula or lore of running. Letsrun actually has some good info from coaches like Canova (who imo has the best training philosophy) you just have to wade through all the crap.
If you have any good coaches in your local area shoot them an email and ask to chat. The science is always behind the current methodology so it’s hard to pinpoint exact changes that will make any one runner a better athlete
It's truly incredible that Magness and Marcus are looked up to by so many people when they've collectively coached zero successful pro runners.
A good HS coach wrote:
It's truly incredible that Magness and Marcus are looked up to by so many people when they've collectively coached zero successful pro runners.
Is Sarah Hall a successful pro runner?
I believe Tara Erdmann had a good season with Jon Marcus.
I don't know how coaching successful pro runners is a hurdle anyways - you're tell me you wouldn't listen to a training discussion between David Martin, Jack Daniels, and Dave Costill? I can't think of any successful pro runners they've coached. What about verne gambetta? I don't know any super stars of his.
I like to listen for creative ideas and then I think about if they hold any water. And for the record, I am not equating Magness or Marcus with absolute pioneers of sports physiology. Just pointing out a few cases that disprove your "general theory"
A good HS coach wrote:
It's truly incredible that Magness and Marcus are looked up to by so many people when they've collectively coached zero successful pro runners.
Plus, it should give you hope that someone, someday, might actually look up to you too
Al Pacino wrote:
If you want some good information read something like jack daniels running formula or lore of running. Letsrun actually has some good info from coaches like Canova (who imo has the best training philosophy) you just have to wade through all the crap.
I've read "Daniels' Running Formula" - it was a great introduction for me, especially the first four chapters or so. What else is out there? Anything newer than that?
Don't worry everybody, you can pay $29/month to get "coaching mastery" from these two! You even get to do homework assignments, take tests, and get a piece of paper as certification of said mastery.
https://the-science-of-running.teachable.com/p/the-scholar-program
It's extra hilarious given that if you look through the resources of most of their programs, its 90% material that is out there on the web for free.
imagebearer wrote:
Al Pacino wrote:
If you want some good information read something like jack daniels running formula or lore of running. Letsrun actually has some good info from coaches like Canova (who imo has the best training philosophy) you just have to wade through all the crap.
I've read "Daniels' Running Formula" - it was a great introduction for me, especially the first four chapters or so. What else is out there? Anything newer than that?
What is your typical training philosophy? Anything you gravitate toward? I can try to guide you from there
2x1hr at HALF MARATHON PACE!?!?!?!
Is that workout even possible for any runner (regardless of speed)?
I can understand (maybe) 2x10k at half marathon pace... but that would be an absolute all out effort (and probably detrimental to your training).
Jerry Lawson
Al Pacino wrote:
imagebearer wrote:
I've read "Daniels' Running Formula" - it was a great introduction for me, especially the first four chapters or so. What else is out there? Anything newer than that?
What is your typical training philosophy? Anything you gravitate toward? I can try to guide you from there
I haven’t been doing this long, so I’d love to better understand the spectrum of training philosophies out there. Generally in 2020 I’ve been running daily, with two workouts and a long run each week. I try to do a threshold workout (LT or CV paces) for one workout and and some faster 5k/3k work during the other one. I’ll throw some hill sprints in after the LT workout occasionally, and strides on my easy day prior to a workout once per week. I haven’t yet tried a Daniels plan.
Al Pacino wrote:
It is hardly discussed because LetsRun has some sort of protection agreement with Marcus and Magness in that criticism is not allowed. If you listen to any of their podcasts they talk over their guests and don’t let them elaborate. Instead they fill the podcast with their own ideas while are often either common knowledge (and they act like it’s completely revolutionary), completely redundant little details that they talk about for 10-15 minutes, or theory that is just not an optimal way to train the body.
As an example. A thread posted here early today critized Jon Marcus’s workout of 2x 1 hour at half marathon pace. That workout is quite impossible for any competitive runner.
If you want some good information read something like jack daniels running formula or lore of running. Letsrun actually has some good info from coaches like Canova (who imo has the best training philosophy) you just have to wade through all the crap.
If you have any good coaches in your local area shoot them an email and ask to chat. The science is always behind the current methodology so it’s hard to pinpoint exact changes that will make any one runner a better athlete
A good example of this is in their interview with Mike Smith on YouTube. I had been looking around for information on Smith and his coaching style and stumbled upon the interview. What a load of garbage. I turned on the podcast to listen to Smith, but all it is Marcus stroking his own overly philosophical d.
Ganbatte wrote:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/59xUSox8aKE6AQxvo6bKIs
The three least respected coaches in the nation (and rightfully so):
Tinman
Magness
Marcus
The three most arrogant coaches in the nation:
Tinman
Magness
Marcus
imagebearer wrote:
Al Pacino wrote:
What is your typical training philosophy? Anything you gravitate toward? I can try to guide you from there
I haven’t been doing this long, so I’d love to better understand the spectrum of training philosophies out there. Generally in 2020 I’ve been running daily, with two workouts and a long run each week. I try to do a threshold workout (LT or CV paces) for one workout and and some faster 5k/3k work during the other one. I’ll throw some hill sprints in after the LT workout occasionally, and strides on my easy day prior to a workout once per week. I haven’t yet tried a Daniels plan.
It seems like you’re describing a tinman schedule, which can get you pretty far in the grand scheme of things. I think most people would argue that it lacks periodization. I believe that in the 6-8 weeks before your peak race that you’re hitting one really tough workout a week. And I mean really tough workouts.
If you look up _____ coach periodization on google you’ll be able to find plenty of hits for whatever you’re looking for. Most training plans are very similar. A base phase, some kind of transition phase, then a competition phase. Sometimes there’s a fourth phase in there.
Lydiard has great material out there. As far as newer stuff their are groups like the Ingebrigstens that do two threshold sessions in a day, and of course Alberto Salazar’s now defunct training group.
The general basis is the same though.
Agreed about Marcus. I enjoy listening to training and coaching theory as much as the next guy, but Marcus is really, really, REALLY bad as a speaker. He's super long-winded and talks in circles. It's like nails on the chalkboard to listen to. He should make a concerted effort to discipline his answers and literally cut them by 50% or more. Magness isn't a natural either, but I find him listenable. 10x better than Marcus. It's a shame, because I think the content is decent and a guy like me is a target audience, but I un-subscribed a while ago and no longer listen because it's too brutal to wade through.
peekay wrote:
You lost me when you recommended listening to Jonathan Marcus. That is not possible.
If you look up _____ coach periodization on google you’ll be able to find plenty of hits for whatever you’re looking for. Most training plans are very similar. A base phase, some kind of transition phase, then a competition phase. Sometimes there’s a fourth phase in there.
Lydiard has great material out there. As far as newer stuff their are groups like the Ingebrigstens that do two threshold sessions in a day, and of course Alberto Salazar’s now defunct training group.
The general basis is the same though.
This is a nice tip, thank you!
Al Pacino wrote:
imagebearer wrote:
[quote]Al Pacino wrote:
[quote]imagebearer wrote:
Generally in 2020 I’ve been running daily, with two workouts and a long run each week. I try to do a threshold workout (LT or CV paces) for one workout and and some faster 5k/3k work during the other one. I’ll throw some hill sprints in after the LT workout occasionally, and strides on my easy day prior to a workout once per week. I haven’t yet tried a Daniels plan.
It seems like you’re describing a tinman schedule, which can get you pretty far in the grand scheme of things.
He described standard bread and butter training that has been out there a lot longer that whatever 'tinman' is. "two workouts and a long run each week."