bruhmoment wrote:
Drugs do amazing things
Broscience.
Athletes will go faster without drugs. But none of you know why.
Energy kinetics bruh.
bruhmoment wrote:
Drugs do amazing things
Broscience.
Athletes will go faster without drugs. But none of you know why.
Energy kinetics bruh.
Coevett wrote:
Kongen wrote:
Of course you don't know. You don't know much at all about professional athletes/T&F.
But there are many examples of athletes who retired on top.
Well list some then.
The most prominent: Roger Bannister, Herb Elliott, Peter Snell, Marita Koch, Florence Griffith-Joyner, Edwin Moses, Michael Johnson, Usain Bolt
What is comical is in this scenario, thinking that retirement, and giving up six-figure sponsorship, and appearance fees, would be his only, or best or the most plausible option.
If money was the main motivation, why not chose to walk away from EPO, and keep collecting sponsorship and appearance money while the gravy train lasts, like the aging boxers?
But you may be right:
The 2002 high profile busts of Boulami and Mourhit scared him so much he retired 4 years later, in 2006.
Maybe Hachlaf's OOC bust for Nandralone contributed to the fear of improved EPO testing.
Maybe he predicted Kaouch's future 2007 bust?
The comedy never ends.
Coevett wrote:
O.k., I didn't mean to suggest that elite athletics is easy or that athletes don't work hard, but El G 'didn't have anything left to prove', so why not continue for a couple more seasons dropping the intensity and picking up 6 figure pay cheques for showing up at big meets? In fact, if you look at the next 4 years, he certainly would have had a shot at equalling Coe and defending his title.
And my point stands that running is not boxing or MMA. El G wasn"t risking his health like a boxer going on too long.
Unless he was full throttle doping
And tbh, I doubt if many elite athletes (as you claim to be) would jump to the defence of an obvious doper like El G unless they were cheats too.
Your point still fails, because he could have always continued for a couple more seasons dropping the intensity, without fear, just by stopping doping, and continue while the gravy train lasted.
Your claim of "jumping to El G's defense" is awkward at best, as it is not a defense to explain why athletes decide to retire, especially as a response to an unproven and unsophisticated conspiracy theory.
BTW, can you give any examples of elite athletes accusing El G of doping?
In a 2014 doping perceptions survey conducted by letsrun, 43% of running fans did not agree that El G was "an obvious doper". It's not quite half, but not that far from 50-50: according to running fans perceptions, maybe he doped, maybe not.
That assumes that doping has little effect, an assumption that only you and a handful of other hardcore doping apologists make.
If El G could run 3:26.0 naturally, dropping the intensity might see him still run sub 3:30, whilst gracefully handing the baton over to the likes of Lagat or later Kiprop.
In fact, EPO alone probably improves elite 1500m times by 5 or 6 seconds, and then HGH and all the other stuff the Moroccan King's best scientists were feeding him.
El G without EPO and HGH in 2005/2006 runs 3:36 times at best. That's why he retired.
Oh, and I don't care what LetsDope and the multiple accounts of Jama Aden agents and Putin trolls think about El G. You discard any pretence at objective scientific credibility whenever you quote that poll (and you do it a lot).
C'mon man....do you always have to be so damn contemptuous all the time? You don't know everything about doping back in those days though you seem to always try to impress on everyone that you do!
On the Wikipedia list of doping cases for athletics it shows "EPO" for Hachlaf's bust, so it needs to be corrected then:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athleticsSecondly, there's a strong likelihood he was using EPO in addition to the ever so popular Nandralone. Remember these doping rings that were busted up, like Aden's camp in Sabadell, that always have EPO with steroids and/or HGH - which is the most popular stack with distance runners.
El G may have officially retired in 2006 but believe he didn't race anymore after 2004?
I linked Kaouch's EPO bust because someone had asked about El G's training partner getting popped for EPO - and it adds to the list of Moroccan doping busts during the following years after the EPO test was implemented.
And maybe El G was doped or maybe not, but I have suspicions that he was given the culture of doping in Morocco and the fact that 4 out of top 7 fastest Moroccan 1500 men have been busted over the years for doping including most importantly one of his training partners & pacer busted for EPO. I can't imagine El G surrounding by a bunch of dopers in training with him being the only one abstaining from using any PEDs...can you?
Do you have to worship Moroccan doping all the time?
The fact is that El G had a long career, 12 years as a pro, and 19 years of running, before retiring at age 31.
How can such a long prolific career be reasonably considered an early retirement?
It wasn't about doping at all, except to fabricate an odd pet theory of a poster who apparently has little knowledge of athletics, and a few doping worshippers who celebrate doping.
Other claims among doping worshippers like yourself, is that it was easy, and is still easy today, to escape detection of doping -- especially EPO.
How can that be reconciled with a fear so strong, it would force someone to walk away from guaranteed 6-figures?
El G really was straining that last lap; this is the first race I saw where he really is struggling; actually stops and puts his hands on his knees once he's done like a mortal!
This makes Komen's 7:20 seem even more insane. He just looks dazed after he finishes. He never looked like he was straining the entire race. When/if that record gets broken, it will be epic to watch, whoever does it.
Yes, Coevett's argument has a flaw in that wants to have his cake and eat it too:
1) El Guerrouj through bribery/weakness of the tests evaded EPO/steroid positives throughout his career, and doped with impunity
2) Yet, the reason for his early retirement was his fear of getting busted
If 1) is true, 2) is certainly not. The conspiracy theory that he retired because the IAAF threatened to expose him is a bad conspiracy theory because exposing El G benefited exactly no one. They did it to clean up the sport? With Ramzi and Kaouch then going 1-2 in the 2005 World Champs 1500... please.
El G was one of the great stories of the Olympics that year, pushing him out of the sport would be stupid even if he was doped. It's much more plausible he just retired because he'd finished his career on top by fulfilling the final bucket list items (Olympic golds) and had plenty of money to live the good life.
The strongest argument for El G doping was he was part of a country in Morocco that appears to have had a thorough state-based program. Maybe not as robust and controlled as Russia, but certainly pretty bad. His coach, Kada, was accused of doping by Hamza Driouch (to be fair, this was after he'd previously accused Jama Aden). Some of El G's one-time training partners (Kaouch, Ramzi) would go on to flunk tests.
Where Morocco was once a complete distance powerhouse, they've really been cut down to just two great runners (Iguider and El Bakaali) in the last 8 years. Instead of getting 3-4 medalists in 1500, 5000, Steeple, 10,000 and 9-12 finalists they get 1-2 medalists and 4-6 finalists now.
Coevett wrote:
El G without EPO and HGH in 2005/2006 runs 3:36 times at best. That's why he retired.
Yeah and Jakob Ingewhitesen can Run 3:28 clean. Great racist logic.
Gawd, you're stupid.
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Yes, Coevett's argument has a flaw in that wants to have his cake and eat it too:
1) El Guerrouj through bribery/weakness of the tests evaded EPO/steroid positives throughout his career, and doped with impunity
2) Yet, the reason for his early retirement was his fear of getting busted
If 1) is true, 2) is certainly not.
That guy doesn't understand logic.
Absolutely not. Like you, I only assumed he will be paid to show up.
If he is afraid of getting caught doping, the best solution is to stop doping.
You said "a couple more seasons dropping the intensity and picking up 6 figure pay cheques for showing up at big meets".
Stopping doping doesn't preclude any of that.
The poll is important to show what were doping perceptions among fans -- something that is highly relevant when one of the fans says things like "obvious doper" -- to show that it is not obvious to everyone.
ElGuerroujFan wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEjACBpYdTg&ab_channel=DavidWarrenI just watched this video, where El Guerrouj comes within 2-3 seconds of the 3000m world record. This was the same year as his mile WR and he doesn't retire until a bit past 2004 Athens..
Why did he not have another go at it, especially given how close he was?
I have several speculations on why he retired but none of them are the reasons he gave. No 3rd-world North African is going leave as much money as did on the table; it simply does not happen. When you are earning close to a million dollars a year from Western infidels, you milk that cow until it is dry. That is the mindset. The government, family, friends, coaches, agents and many others depend on the revenue from El G's running; he couldn't stop even if he wanted to.
did the time I ain't kiddin wrote:
He must have known he would get popped eventually if he continued his career. Guilt of doping led to his retirement.
when webb ran those 3 pr's in a month and dipped, same story
ya
but i kind of give el G a pass, because he i believe that he was actually capable of winning in a entirely clean field. = 347 without drugs like coe ovette,
It was wild seeing him struggle over the last lap.
He looked human.
Your ignorance knows no limits.
ElGuerrouj was already living like a king, his luxurious future more than assured.
But yeah, those savages in Africa, that is the mindset.
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:...
The strongest argument for El G doping was he was part of a country in Morocco that appears to have had a thorough state-based program. Maybe not as robust and controlled as Russia, but certainly pretty bad. His coach, Kada, was accused of doping by Hamza Driouch (to be fair, this was after he'd previously accused Jama Aden). Some of El G's one-time training partners (Kaouch, Ramzi) would go on to flunk tests.
....
No, the strongest reasons are dozens of times he ran sub 3:30, including multiple 3:26s, starting in the absolutely heyday of unfettered EPO usage. And the nonsense about testing is exactly that. EPO clears fairly quickly and you don't need to have it in your system at the time of competition to benefit.
Those that get busted in competition merely made a mistake in timing.
I honestly don't see how anyone can think that any Olympic running event (and the 3000) have clean world records.
Most North African greats openly stated that they were financially motivated and lived a flashy and opulent lifestyle (including El G), openly showcasing their multiple mansions in a country where the average yearly salary was under $1,000. In fact, it's often admitted here even by doping apologists that East Africans are solely motivated by financial rewards. I don't know of any great runner in history who decided to retire on top, certainly not when they could continue to command 6 figure appearance fees for a 3 1/2 minutes work.
Ah yes, the greedy Africans only compete for money and are willing to do whatever it takes to win. They're nothing like the noble Europeans who are motivated solely by their love for the sport.
That's what you think at least. Funny you should mention El G enjoying a lavish lifestyle when he was training hard and living like a monk 11 months out of the year. Doesn't really fit your narrative, does it.
Hard to say why he didn't. But the 3k is a non-Olympic distance, probably wasn't worth his time to make repeated attempts. Remember, every 3k he runs is a 1500/mile he couldn't run. That was his bread and butter race. It would have been nice to own the 3k record, but it's a minor event.