Age 40, never promoted, feeling like a failure and seeking advice.

In your field wrote:

But what I've seen in my several years in the software development industry is promotions are useless. You either do the development work, or you're in a management role and do less of the development work.

I would say in my experiences this is 100% true. I'm in management and don't do near the development work I did a year ago. I've lost some of it because there is a lot of stuff I haven't done in a year plus. I manage 8 people AND a 3 person overseas team...between the meetings, the trainings, the plans/goals for employees and keeping everyone on track, I rely on my senior developer for A LOT....and to be absolutely honest here, the only reason I got the role and he didn't is because he doesn't want to deal with the management side of things and he loves to code. He is more technical that I am, but he will also tell you that I am a better manager because I "get" people better than he does.

All that being said, we've lost a couple of individuals in the past years who were in lead/management roles because, as they said "they want to do more coding".

It may not make you feel better but you make more money than about 90% of Americans. I’m not sure where you live but you can live a very good lifestyle in most areas of the US off that income.

Hang Fire wrote:

They just oversee the work of the Directors, Managers,

Director is a higher title than VP, isn't it?

I think the ranking is Executive > Vice President > Director > Manager > Associate.

There are titles out there like Senior VP, Assistant Manager, etc. but they usually are within the 5 tiers.

Jessica the Golddigger wrote:

I think the ranking is Executive > Vice President > Director > Manager > Associate.

There are titles out there like Senior VP, Assistant Manager, etc. but they usually are within the 5 tiers.

That’s typically the the hierarchy. As stated, OP, $110K in the Midwest is pretty comfortable unless you live in Chicago. Management is overrated and firing people is downright awful. I just went from managing 40 at a small company to managing nobody at a larger company on a special project role.

It’s pretty nice to just work instead of having 4 hours of meetings with employees and then still try to fit 8 hours of work in the remaining 4 hours. However, I think to really get to the next level of salary $150K+, you’ll likely need some management experience.

My advice is to come in the office everyday as optimistic as possible. Put in extra effort, make suggestions to your management and even kiss some a$$. Don’t leave to go home at 5:01 everyday. The corporate world is pretty policital and the powers that be can only go on so much when looking to fill management positions.

People are not going to hire someone to run things that has a history of jumping ship like you have said you do. That is the problem. $110k is a pretty nice salary, so why complain? If you want to be in charge you will either have to sit tight and put the time in at one place enough where they have the confidence you won't bail on them or go start your own company. Overall, you will never be put in a leadership role if you keep giving the impression you a frustrated and ready to jump ship; it is simple as that.

A job is just a group of people, unless you work for yourself.

You can start a podcast and talk about something you enjoy.

The post's title says "never promoted," but your titles show a series of promotions: Developer, Lead Developer, Senior Developer. Own the accomplishments and be proud.

I like another poster's reference to your "external locus of control." If you want to get into management, take the steps to get there: Ask a mentor and/or good leader what you're lacking; learn to be a better communicator (via Toastmasters, a class, YouTube, practice, books, etc.); learn to be more charismatic; get an MBA. In short, have a strong internal locus of control.

rojo wrote:

Hang Fire wrote:

I feel that I will soon become expendable and my age becoming a deal-breaker when I'm on the hunt for a new job. .

I'll let others answer your question but hope when they answer that someone can answer a related one that I have.

One of my good buddy's has the very same fear you do about getting new jobs now that he's 45+. Why is age so bad? Why would a company discriminate against old employees? Is it simply a straight ageism / prejudice or is it because the older employees have bigger salary demands?

I hire lots of folks. There are times (not always) when I will be less likely to hire someone who is 48 years old than someone who is 28 years old. Generally the reasons are:

1) Older person expects to be paid more. 28 year-old is happy with a 60k offer, 48 year-old expects 100k.

2) Older person is likely to be less flexible in what they are asked to do. Some things are simply beneath someone of their age/experience (at least in their own minds).

3) Older person is likely to have more trouble learning new skills and adapting to new work environments.

4) Older person will often be more reluctant to go the extra mile when called for. By that age, most folks have settled into an "it's just work" attitude. Younger person is more often trying/expecting to get ahead and will go the extra mile to prove that they should be promoted, etc.

Obviously there are trade-offs and there are benefits with a more mature person. They are often better able to communicate, don't panic/get flustered as easily, need less supervision . . .

All of these (both pluses and minuses) are, of course, stereotypes - more often true than not, but do not apply to every person or every situation. At any rate, the above are some things that come to mind when considering the age of a candidate.

Alan Webbs Triceps wrote:

The post's title says "never promoted," but your titles show a series of promotions: Developer, Lead Developer, Senior Developer. Own the accomplishments and be proud. . .

I like this answer ^ . OP's career progression seems solid to me. Most people will never be CEO. And I don't think most people would be too happy if they were.

Getting from 37k to 110k seems better than average to me. Certainly not the progression of a "loser".

Everyone fluffs themselves up to a bigger name job title. Salary progression indicates you got promoted too. Now you just need to puff yourself up

Real Obvi wrote:

4) Older person will often be more reluctant to go the extra mile when called for. By that age, most folks have settled into an "it's just work" attitude. Younger person is more often trying/expecting to get ahead and will go the extra mile to prove that they should be promoted, etc.

It really is just work, that's the secret. "If we don't make this deadline, our widgets will not make it to consumers in Q3@!!!!!!"

Old people are just done with the whole "willingly exploit yourself for a promotion that won't be worth it" bit. And their managers don't even try and convince them otherwise, they just move on to the fresher, dumber meat.

I'm over 60 years old and have been a developer for over 30 years. I spent about 2 years a ProjectLead/Mgr (where I was 1/3 lead. 2/3 mgr, and 10% developer...yea I know that adds up to more than 100%). I hated the Mgr part.

I've had no trouble getting jobs. I could quit today and find a new job in a few months at most. Yea, my options are less than someone younger has, but there are plenty that would want my specific skill set.

That said, I'm not trying to talk you out of a Mgr position. If that is your goal, then you need to talk to your manager about it. If you are at a small company if might be difficult, but at large companies there are openings all the time in manager roles. Your manager should be able to 1) let you know if they think you are suited for the roles, 2) what you need to get there, 3) help develop a path forward for you.

BTW: with your lead roles, you might be able to get a new job in a new company as a manager. Lead roles are usually pseudo manager positions. However, you'll need to be able to explain your layoffs. There are two types of layoffs: 1) company doing bad or closing a department, 2) pruning deadweight.

Even if the company if doing bad they will move the superstars to a new role. BTW: a superstar developer is worth 5 so-so managers. You want to be able to call your own shots, become a superstar developer. That's not easy, but it can be done. Even at your age.

love this setup! wrote:

Real Obvi wrote:

4) Older person will often be more reluctant to go the extra mile when called for. By that age, most folks have settled into an "it's just work" attitude. Younger person is more often trying/expecting to get ahead and will go the extra mile to prove that they should be promoted, etc.

It really is just work, that's the secret. "If we don't make this deadline, our widgets will not make it to consumers in Q3@!!!!!!"

Old people are just done with the whole "willingly exploit yourself for a promotion that won't be worth it" bit. And their managers don't even try and convince them otherwise, they just move on to the fresher, dumber meat.

Agreed. That is the ways things are set up. We live in an "every man for himself" system which leads to all of the above.

The manager must move on to someone who will go the extra mile. Otherwise he/she will be replaced. The owner can't avoid replacing the manager who doesn't get his/her team to go the extra mile. Otherwise, his/her company will fall behind and be replaced. The younger person can't afford to not go the extra mile. Otherwise his/her career runs into a dead end.

The system is simply set up this way. Setting up a system to do better is the challenge. Of course, it is easy to throw out a few cute phrases but to actually make the world work better for most people is challenging.

Real Obvi wrote:

The system is simply set up this way. Setting up a system to do better is the challenge. Of course, it is easy to throw out a few cute phrases but to actually make the world work better for most people is challenging.

I am right there with you. I do not appreciate the jab that I am just pissing into the wind talking about this stuff without a 10-point plan. I have plenty of thoughts on this subject (how to make a better system) but I did not think LRC is the place to discuss it. Because even when someone agrees with me, like you did, you couldn't resist positioning yourself as smarter than me (all while rehashing the same points). Gah, online forums.

rojo wrote:

Hang Fire wrote:

I feel that I will soon become expendable and my age becoming a deal-breaker when I'm on the hunt for a new job. .

I'll let others answer your question but hope when they answer that someone can answer a related one that I have.

One of my good buddy's has the very same fear you do about getting new jobs now that he's 45+. Why is age so bad? Why would a company discriminate against old employees? Is it simply a straight ageism / prejudice or is it because the older employees have bigger salary demands?

Rojo, I used to teach "older" adults for a non-profit agency to learn new skills so they could reinvent themselves in the workplace. What age qualified them? 45. The answer to your question is that it is almost straight salary demands. If you get to age 65, then there is some actually ageism involved, but before that, it's almost all just due to salary.

Ridgemonter wrote:

However, you'll need to be able to explain your layoffs. There are two types of layoffs: 1) company doing bad or closing a department, 2) pruning deadweight.

Hey there, first layoff was after the company released an inferior product to one of our clients, so that client cut some of our resources - and me being a resource - was given a 45 day notice that my job was eliminated and a 3 month severance package. So, that was nice...and I was working a new job the following week so I got the double the pay for brief time.

The second layoff was a 6 month role that they cut after 3 months. We finished the project in three months and they cut me the day the project was delivered. I planned on quitting anyways, because it was a terrible working environment. The woman who I reported to had a history of letting people go for pretty strange reasons, but I had a new job the following week anyways for a bigger, better, more prestigious company. So no love lost.

This^ is the best advice post in this thread.

I have been at a couple different companies where some people expressed shock that a certain person was promoted to a Senior Manager or Director or VP. In all cases where shock occurred, the reason for the promotion was that the employee let his/her boss know early on that that was the path they wanted while those in shock did not.

To the OP...if you feel like you are financially secure, and if you feel like your friend's company idea is a good one, go for it. I would really consider whether you enjoy being a developer or not though. If you do enjoy it, it might not be worth the headache to go after a title. Just be sure before you make a decision.

comedyre1i3f wrote:

At least you're not this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w70RQLtdVeU

Ever thought of starting your own company or consulting. If you are good at what you do, why let someone else profit off of your talents?

What are you trying to say? His net worth is $15,000,000... The other 2 aren't doing bad either $200,000,000 and $20,000,000... If I have to wash lettuce in wearingca stupid hat in a 1980's comedy and make that kind of money count me in!!!