WaPost article: Meet the Cal cross-country runner who wants to dismantle the NCAA

TheseKidsUnderstand24 wrote:

Runner10287 wrote:

I don't think they have thought it through. All you see is "we need change". So what and how?

your deliberate failure to understand the varied reasons for this movement, does not register as a legitimate argument in this debate. I refuse to engage with you. My only advice: learn the reasons why people might advocate for this type of thing (sincerely try), instead of just regurgitating your reasons why you think it's bad. You'll never get anywhere this way, so if you choose to keep engaging in bad-faith arguments like this, LRC will continue to be your prison of ignorance. I sincerely mean that.

Lol bro spare me the generic "go read a book" comeback but thank you for proving my point that you clowns just want to complain for complaining sake.

I sincerely want to hear legitimate suggestions.

I think this is a rosy way of looking at things but a Utopian view that does not exist in reality.

I went to Cal Poly which is not a D1 powerhouse or NCAA money generator. I had one friend on the basketball team and several track teammates who also did football. Of the general athlete population that were at college only because of athletics very few were getting valuable degrees. Even at Poly which is a pretty serious academic school with very high emphasis on Stem a lot of those student-athletes were in degrees like Rec Management that really have no value add in life. For every athlete that got a STEM or business degree, they would not have gotten without athletics 10 more were in one of the garbage majors. Most of the athlete's who got STEM degrees were going to college regardless of sports and came from Middle class or above families. My buddy on the basketball team was a mechanical engineer with me and graduated top in our class for the entire department. He had a sister who went to Stanford and parents were highly educated, basketball didn't open up a door to college for him.

What's even worse is a lot of the kids in the crappy majors would drop out without graduating once eligibility expired or after two years. Sometimes even with loans since scholarships don't pay for everything and loans are "normal" for college now. From friends at the major conference schools I've been told this problem is even worse there.

There are some major issues in the NCAA program. To me the idea the narrative that it is helping underprivileged kids have the opportunity to get educations just isn't real if you've actually been through a D1 school. It does for a few, but it leaves others worse off. I'm not a fan of just blow the thing up. But there needs to be some reform and a recognition that it is a business in the money-making sports and those players need to be taken care of.

I cannot speak for anyone else, as you seem to ask me to. There isn't a monolithic group of people calling out and asking for one thing.

I think the NCAA model has no place with revenue sports, or really any sports. Kids that want to get to the NBA should go pursue the NBA dream as part of that system, just like MLB players can go into the minor league system.

The idea that athletics are a pathway to an education is silly - if you like athletics, go for it, just don't expect it to pay your way. And similarly, why are certain individuals afforded with a scholarship to attend the school and perform a physical task that brings no revenue to the university? Like, why are people given money to perform a physical task at an institution higher education, other than in a work-study job? I'm happy to abolish the financial arrangement for sports altogether. Certainly, there are people who benefit on the margins of the current system, like the bookworm who gets a scholarship to run for a university and is so dedicated and just trains and goes to class. But most people who use athletics as a magic key to get into a university are ill-equipped to take advantage of majority of the educational resources at that university. It's a farce that exposure to the university environment will enrich most athletes. They are enrolled so they can get a slip of paper that says they went to college, all while avoiding most of the experiences that would actually give meaning to that diploma (like exploring a wide range of interests, or finding a passion they never knew they had). Currently, the majority of good that college athletics provide, is equipping their athletes with a slip of paper that makes it easier to get a job at enterprise rent-a-car.

And the idea that athletics should subsidize the institutions is also silly. It's reasonable to provide kids a way to participate in sports while at college, but in a club system. Same way kids can perform improv, dance, etc. Colleges already provide a million ways to explore passions, and I'd like sports to be handled in a similar way to orchestra. You don't see too many idiots walking around Stanford's campus just because they can rock a french horn and not much else.

Thank you. I mostly agree with what you are saying.

Runner10287 wrote:

Thank you. I mostly agree with what you are saying.

Can you, uh, walk me through your earlier trashing of the overall movement? Where you accused "us" (whoever that is) of not having thought it through? Can you explain how you came to that conclusion, and why you thought you knew more than the people you were throwing under the bus?

Because when all's said and done, you seem to have nothing to say.

But the kids studying "garbage" majors are making that choice themselves. They are being given the opportunity to get a solid education, it's just that some are not taking advantage of that opportunity.

And if they are not choosing to take advantage of it, then are they really being exploited? Seems like they think it's a good deal for them.

But I don't think the whole athletes getting paid/exploited issue really applies to Cal Poly. How many bowl games have they played in? How many seats do they sell for their football games? Athletics are probably a net loss to mid majors.

I'd like to see something that I saw proposed in the last thread. Someone suggested that universities offer 6-8 year scholarships, so athletes in the revenue sports can take fewer classes while competing, get some baseline lower division classes out of the way and have time to train, travel and compete. Then, once their eligibility is over, stay at school and be a real student to finish up their degree, assuming they didn't turn pro.

I think that something like that, on top of allowing athletes to own their likeness, would go a long way. I also think that revenue sports athletes should be allowed to get some extra money on top of their scholarship. Just how much, I don't have the answer for. Or maybe some kind of bonus upon graduation? Keep dangling that carrot to incentivize them to do what we all want them to do in the first place, which is get an education.

The athletes are directed to easy majors so they can focus on football or basketball or whatever. The real issue is they aren't ready or fit for what a college education should be. They are there to win games.

TheseKidsUnderstand24 wrote:

Runner10287 wrote:

Thank you. I mostly agree with what you are saying.

Can you, uh, walk me through your earlier trashing of the overall movement? Where you accused "us" (whoever that is) of not having thought it through? Can you explain how you came to that conclusion, and why you thought you knew more than the people you were throwing under the bus?

Because when all's said and done, you seem to have nothing to say.

Where did I trash the movement? I asked for actual suggestions beyond "we need change". Perhaps it's your general defensive attitude when questions are asked? Doesn't help against the whiny brat stereotype.

Runner10287 wrote:

Mine honest take is since college athletics have allowed money to ruin the purpose that it is time to remove colleges from elite athletic pursuits. Sound mind in a sound body is the idea but big time college athletics have become win win win. Which over time destroys the mental health (no sound mind) and pretty much motivates coaches to over train athletes (not so sound body).

Is this trashing the movement?

Get help son.

Runner10287 wrote:

TheseKidsUnderstand24 wrote:

Can you, uh, walk me through your earlier trashing of the overall movement? Where you accused "us" (whoever that is) of not having thought it through? Can you explain how you came to that conclusion, and why you thought you knew more than the people you were throwing under the bus?

Because when all's said and done, you seem to have nothing to say.

Where did I trash the movement? I asked for actual suggestions beyond "we need change". Perhaps it's your general defensive attitude when questions are asked? Doesn't help against the whiny brat stereotype.

Thanks for providing such an easy example. You're like "good points, I agree with those", and then you're like "ouchie, a whiny brat". Like, you are just here to bait people into responding to you. Lonely sack. Did this attention scratch your itch?

Hah talk about trashing your own movement. Even when I agree with your well thought out post you can’t help but look to continue an argument.

Have a nice day troll.

As mentioned Cal Poly is not one of the big money sports universities, and we're in the D1 group for football so we can't do bowls. Yet you still get some of the nonsense.

I think its very hard to say its the kids fault. It's the same thing with the whole student loan system. You have a predatory market where you expect 18-year-old kids to be able to be smarter than the system created by adults with lots of experience on how to prey on young people. The kids should be smarter arguement is a total straw man. If you were in their position you would drink the cool-aid.

You also ignore the amount of cheating that occurs at these universities to keep athletes eligible. Many of these athletes don't have the ability to get through the programs either through lack of prior preparation or other reason, so there is massive cheating to get them through. At the big conference schools, academic cheating to keep the athletes eligible is rampant. These schools don't care about the education of the athletes. It is just a front to rake in millions tax-free while not paying the labor.

OK, look, you keep bringing up arguments that I am not making...of course there is cheating, where did I say there wasn't? Of course a lot of athletes end up at universities they weren't prepared for, I never said they weren't. Is the solution to keep them out and force them to not go to college at all?

Not even try? And now you bring up predatory loans...what does that have to do with this issue?

You seem to be falling into the original problem that a lot of people seem to have with this movement and Andrew Cooperman speficially. Listing problem after problem, but offering no actual solutions.

I completely agree with you that there are kids not actually getting educated, but skating through for the sake of college athletics. But you have to admit there are SOME who end up getting a good deal out of it. You also have to admit that SOME could get an education but choose not to. But the proportions between those scenarios are not the issue, let's not quibble over the percentages in each camp. The real question at hand is what are the solutions to the problems? Also, what are the potential negative consequences to those solutions?

Runner10287 wrote:

Hah talk about trashing your own movement. Even when I agree with your well thought out post you can’t help but look to continue an argument.

Have a nice day troll.

There's a troll in this exchange all right.

Primo Numero Uno wrote:

You also ignore the amount of cheating that occurs at these universities to keep athletes eligible. Many of these athletes don't have the ability to get through the programs either through lack of prior preparation or other reason, so there is massive cheating to get them through. At the big conference schools, academic cheating to keep the athletes eligible is rampant. These schools don't care about the education of the athletes. It is just a front to rake in millions tax-free while not paying the labor.

Do you have evidence of this beyond UNC Chapel Hill about 5 - 6 years ago? I'm not saying it does not exist...but I haven't seen it in the four schools - including P5's - I've been involved at. Critics keep saying this without much to back it up that I see...sure, the revenue athletes at P5 schools get an obscene amount of semi-transparent "hand holding" which does make it seem like a sham...but at least those athletes are almost never paying a dime for their education? I realize this doesn't necessarily make it "ok"...but at least they have the opportunity to get that piece of paper debt-free?

And it would be interesting to see actual numbers of debt as it relates to "trash majors" and outcomes post-graduation for athletes v. the general student body. I'd be willing to put good money on those numbers being very similar if not more concerning "poor outcomes" for the general student body. Which would suggest it's a problem of higher education...not athletics.

Anyway, all that said, I do agree that it's probably time universities got out of the "semi-pro" athletics business.

Corrected title: “Meet the Cal xc runner who wants attention”

4:35 mile and 4:08 1500m collegiate bests btw. Stud.

Always be wary of the kids looking to make name for themselves by pointing out the flaws in the system. Questioning is great but when asked to help provide solutions they tend to remind you they are still mentally undeveloped children. The kids don't fully understand.

Runner10287 wrote:

Always be wary of the kids looking to make name for themselves by pointing out the flaws in the system. Questioning is great but when asked to help provide solutions they tend to remind you they are still mentally undeveloped children. The kids don't fully understand.

Right, the mentally developed adults are the ones picking on the kids, in a seldom-read forum.

The reality is he has all the answers. Read the story and see where he points out where all the money would come form to endorse his fight for justice. It's not rocket science everyone, Cooper figured this out and it's not going to hurt any sport, any coach, any trainer, any ops person... any GA position, any scholarship.. basically all the things that athletes have fought for for years to get better healthy care, more academic support, more tutors.... he figured out where the funding will come from.... Give AC a break already!