David Epstein explains why he no long supports the Semenya testosterone policies.

Drumroll wrote:

Give me an example of a sports person who would have been banned unfairly in this scheme

You would need to define unfair but people like Maria José Martínez-Patiño comes to mind immediately. The current consensus is that she and the woman like her get no benefit from their condition.

I haven't read the original post or this thread, but I assumed Epstein changed his mind because he let political opinions get in the way of science when he thinks it through.

list grandmaster wrote:

I haven't read the original post or this thread, but I assumed Epstein changed his mind because he let political opinions get in the way of science when he thinks it through.

Classic projection.

[/quote] Based on that report, World Rugby just proposed banning transgender women from women’s competition. Joanna once told me that, “for cardiovascular factors, trans women go from typical men to typical women after transition, but with strength, they go from typical men to somewhere in between typical men and typical women.” [/quote]

I found this line really intriguing. The decision is interesting, as the author points out because we really are only excluding DSD athletes from events where we have both the scientific research and anecdotal evidence that proves they often win at them. However, it seems patently obvious that at any event shorter than 400m, or events where muscular strength (LJ, HJ, PV, J, Hammer, SP, Discus) would all confer a large advantage to an individual who went through typical male puberty.

finallyransub17 wrote:

Based on that report, World Rugby just proposed banning transgender women from women’s competition. Joanna once told me that, “for cardiovascular factors, trans women go from typical men to typical women after transition, but with strength, they go from typical men to somewhere in between typical men and typical women.” [/quote]

I found this line really intriguing. The decision is interesting, as the author points out because we really are only excluding DSD athletes from events where we have both the scientific research and anecdotal evidence that proves they often win at them. However, it seems patently obvious that at any event shorter than 400m, or events where muscular strength (LJ, HJ, PV, J, Hammer, SP, Discus) would all confer a large advantage to an individual who went through typical male puberty.[/quote]

First off it needs to be pointed out that Caster isn't a transwoman and how much of their situation applies to her is hard to say. People like to mix them together but they are not the same.

A lot of obvious stuff turns out to be false when people actually look at it. The governing body is stuck between overreach (going where they don't have evidence to back them up ) and being reactive (what happens when the next intersex athlete is a sprinter not a middle distance runner). I think there are just more people built for middle distance than the sprints/throws so we see the issue there. But someday I do expect some fast intersex sprinter to cause these same type of issues...

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

finallyransub17 wrote:

Based on that report, World Rugby just proposed banning transgender women from women’s competition. Joanna once told me that, “for cardiovascular factors, trans women go from typical men to typical women after transition, but with strength, they go from typical men to somewhere in between typical men and typical women.”

I found this line really intriguing. The decision is interesting, as the author points out because we really are only excluding DSD athletes from events where we have both the scientific research and anecdotal evidence that proves they often win at them. However, it seems patently obvious that at any event shorter than 400m, or events where muscular strength (LJ, HJ, PV, J, Hammer, SP, Discus) would all confer a large advantage to an individual who went through typical male puberty.[/quote]

First off it needs to be pointed out that Caster isn't a transwoman and how much of their situation applies to her is hard to say. People like to mix them together but they are not the same.

A lot of obvious stuff turns out to be false when people actually look at it. The governing body is stuck between overreach (going where they don't have evidence to back them up ) and being reactive (what happens when the next intersex athlete is a sprinter not a middle distance runner). I think there are just more people built for middle distance than the sprints/throws so we see the issue there. But someday I do expect some fast intersex sprinter to cause these same type of issues...[/quote]

Both transgender and DSD males - as Semenya is - possess what they have in common with other biological males, which includes male chromosomes (they are 46XY), functioning testes, male levels of testosterone and other physiological features of hypo-androgenism (greater muscle and bone density and higher red blood cell content). That is why they are superior to most XX women athletes.

gkdkv wrote:

Translation: "To comment on this thread you may not present any counterpoints to what I am saying"

Tldr on the article though

Nope, wrong, read the article. It is very nuanced and presents many sides of this debate very well. If you don't want to read the article, just don't comment on a thread exclusively about the article.

Armstronglivs wrote:

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

Based on that report, World Rugby just proposed banning transgender women from women’s competition. Joanna once told me that, “for cardiovascular factors, trans women go from typical men to typical women after transition, but with strength, they go from typical men to somewhere in between typical men and typical women.”

I found this line really intriguing. The decision is interesting, as the author points out because we really are only excluding DSD athletes from events where we have both the scientific research and anecdotal evidence that proves they often win at them. However, it seems patently obvious that at any event shorter than 400m, or events where muscular strength (LJ, HJ, PV, J, Hammer, SP, Discus) would all confer a large advantage to an individual who went through typical male puberty.

First off it needs to be pointed out that Caster isn't a transwoman and how much of their situation applies to her is hard to say. People like to mix them together but they are not the same.

A lot of obvious stuff turns out to be false when people actually look at it. The governing body is stuck between overreach (going where they don't have evidence to back them up ) and being reactive (what happens when the next intersex athlete is a sprinter not a middle distance runner). I think there are just more people built for middle distance than the sprints/throws so we see the issue there. But someday I do expect some fast intersex sprinter to cause these same type of issues...[/quote]

Both transgender and DSD males - as Semenya is - possess what they have in common with other biological males, which includes male chromosomes (they are 46XY), functioning testes, male levels of testosterone and other physiological features of hypo-androgenism (greater muscle and bone density and higher red blood cell content). That is why they are superior to most XX women athletes.[/quote]

But as the article points out, trans women run the same sex-age graded times post-transition if they undergo hormone therapy to reduce testosterone. Apparently the advantages of going through male puberty wash out with the disadvantages of hormone therapy such that they are running equivalent times to XX women. So it isn't cut and dry. Looks like trans women should be allowed to compete with XX women (at least in events 5km and up).

Both transgender and DSD males - as Semenya is - possess what they have in common with other biological males, which includes male chromosomes (they are 46XY), functioning testes, male levels of testosterone and other physiological features of hypo-androgenism (greater muscle and bone density and higher red blood cell content). That is why they are superior to most XX women athletes.[/quote]

But as the article points out, trans women run the same sex-age graded times post-transition if they undergo hormone therapy to reduce testosterone. Apparently the advantages of going through male puberty wash out with the disadvantages of hormone therapy such that they are running equivalent times to XX women. So it isn't cut and dry. Looks like trans women should be allowed to compete with XX women (at least in events 5km and up).[/quote]

You have just conceded the argument supporting the IAAF rule requiring hormone suppression if trans/intersex athletes compete as women.

It doesn't however end the debate, as the evidence is that the advantages of male biology extend beyond higher levels of testosterone.