Fast 5k Road Racing Flat

Low stack, no plate ZoomX track flat w/o spikes seems like an incredibly risky, low ceiling proposition. Can't blame Nike for not prioritizing when they are selling Next% @$250 as fast as they [choose to] make them. What can they realistically charge for a non-spike flat, pebax or not? $120? Who's going to buy them?

I'm not sure that Zoom-X would actually work for a flat without changes.

The Reeboks may be a Pebax-based material, but the foam is different than Zoom-X (probably because you don't actually want a lot of deformation in a true flat, since they'll bottom out and bruise your feet). You can throw a plate in there, but again you'll really feel it unless the midsole is firmed up some.

Nike Streak LT3 & LT4 are really made for grass. Basically a XC spike that you can use for workouts. The rigidity can be too much on the road, but help a ton on softer grass. Same reason why the plated racing shoes like the vaporfly work so well. You have a soft platform (the foam), reinforced with a speedy plate, which gives the protection you need, and the speed to run fast.

UM HELLO?

why has only one person (only briefly) touched on the brooks hyperion elites? they are easily the best shoe for this event and you can pick them up on brooks.com

theres two versions, the tempos and the elites

I'm not an expert but I try to keep up to speed on shoe technology. I think the RFP foam actually is pretty similar to ZoomX -- which, by the way, is not proprietary to Nike as they license it from a UK company to my knowledge. And, as I think we all know, the running economy benefits of the Nike shoes are mostly from the foam. The carbon plate is mostly to stabilize the shoe since the foam is so soft...Peg Turbo is a case in point of a lot of zoomx that feels mushy and less stable. Since the Reebok RFP uses a lot less of the peba foam and with a much lower stack, it doesn't require the extent of added stabilization of a high stack vaporfly. It is stable both by geometry and with the addition of some EVA. So, to your comment, the peba foam can work well as a more conventional racing flat, it's just a balance of how much is used and how stable that amount is. In the end, the Reebok is bouncy and fast relative to its incredibly light weight. Most runners, myself included, are going to prefer a more substantial shoe for longer races, but the RFP is a fantastic choice for 5km and less, and longer for some.

Ho Hum wrote:

I'm not sure that Zoom-X would actually work for a flat without changes.

The Reeboks may be a Pebax-based material, but the foam is different than Zoom-X (probably because you don't actually want a lot of deformation in a true flat, since they'll bottom out and bruise your feet). You can throw a plate in there, but again you'll really feel it unless the midsole is firmed up some.

Ho Hum wrote:

KAV wrote:

Adidas Takumi Sen (if you can find it in the States....), 6mm drop, 170g on the usual reference size. The grip of these shoes is phenomenal. Holds the current 10k road world record btw...

It seems like these are either discontinued or just not a priority for Adidas...been keeping an eye out for them for a while and haven't seen anything.

It seems like most shoe companies are all moving away from low drop, low stack racers, unfortunately.

Need to get them from Europe (UK)

The Floyd wrote:

And, as I think we all know, the running economy benefits of the Nike shoes are mostly from the foam. The carbon plate is mostly to stabilize the shoe since the foam is so soft...

-100

Uh, no. That may be one of the reasons, but not necessarily the chief benefit of a 'spring' plate.

high school xc coach wrote:

whatever rhonex ran his 26:24 10k in last fall. adidas something.

This. I know the “en Vogue” thing to do is to wear marshmallow shoes for everything now but I can’t help but think that from Mile - 10k races traditional flats will be superior for most. Still think many people may be better off in more traditional flats than high stack carbon plated racers at the half and full distances too (hello Molly Huddle) but everyone is obsessed with the new shiny thing.

Tugboat1980 wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

whatever rhonex ran his 26:24 10k in last fall. adidas something.

This. I know the “en Vogue” thing to do is to wear marshmallow shoes for everything now but I can’t help but think that from Mile - 10k races traditional flats will be superior for most. Still think many people may be better off in more traditional flats than high stack carbon plated racers at the half and full distances too (hello Molly Huddle) but everyone is obsessed with the new shiny thing.

BTW, Kipruto broke the record in the Takumi Sen. Jepkosgei won NYC Marathon in them too.

it is, what it is wrote:

The Floyd wrote:

And, as I think we all know, the running economy benefits of the Nike shoes are mostly from the foam. The carbon plate is mostly to stabilize the shoe since the foam is so soft...

-100

Uh, no. That may be one of the reasons, but not necessarily the chief benefit of a 'spring' plate.

Carbon fiber plates are not new and have been fairly well researched to increase running economy by only around 1%. I don’t think you can pick apart one thing on the Vaporfly as the secret weapon, it’s the sum of the parts that make it work. It’s the light weight, it’s the bouncy high stack of foam to reduce muscle usage for shock absorption, it’s the geometry to shift forces higher up to the hips and knees (more fatigue resistant muscles), it’s the spoon shaped carbon fiber plate to stabilize a completely unstable stack fo foam, tune the rebound, and direct the foot forward...it’s the whole package.

If you don't need much cushion then the adios and the takumi sen are light and very well made.

Fair enough, all those factors play into it, but those factors are all about the foam as it's the foam that is the secret sauce that they design around/for. At least that's the conclusion of the study that was done a while back. I'm surprised that people on here are still going nuts that it's all about the plate. I've put the link below to a discussion of it for those who missed it. Quote from the article: "So the shoe definitely functions like a spring, but in this analysis it’s the foam midsole rather than the stiff plate that makes almost all the difference in the shoe’s contribution to energy savings."https://www.outsideonline.com/2367961/how-do-nikes-vaporfly-4-shoes-actually-work

Tugboat1980 wrote:

it is, what it is wrote:

-100

Uh, no. That may be one of the reasons, but not necessarily the chief benefit of a 'spring' plate.

Carbon fiber plates are not new and have been fairly well researched to increase running economy by only around 1%. I don’t think you can pick apart one thing on the Vaporfly as the secret weapon, it’s the sum of the parts that make it work. It’s the light weight, it’s the bouncy high stack of foam to reduce muscle usage for shock absorption, it’s the geometry to shift forces higher up to the hips and knees (more fatigue resistant muscles), it’s the spoon shaped carbon fiber plate to stabilize a completely unstable stack fo foam, tune the rebound, and direct the foot forward...it’s the whole package.

If it was the foam then people would be running records in the Pegasus Turbo (and they’re not). The foam isn’t the whole story at all.

Vaporfly alternative wrote:

With Nike Alphafly and Vaporfly out of stock, what’s the best alternative for a 5k road racing shoe for a low 14 minute forefoot runner with performance being the highest priority.

Wait, what? You're a low 14 min 5k guy and have to come on a message board asking for advice on the best alternative racing flat for you? Yeah, okay...