Serious Training Thread - Tinman Haters, what is his system missing?

lzlevee wrote:

Been catching up on some threads about people in love with Tinman and people that are not so much in love.

I actually think the training is really, really solid, but for those haters, what would you add that is currently not there?

Yes it's solid training to improve a bit, but the lack of long sessions isn't great. I'm mostly looking at the races more than an hour long. To me it's a miracle they've had a couple guys run under 62 minutes for half marathon, but then that hasn't translated to races beyond a half marathon. From what I've seen they never run more than a mile or two at a faster pace. And even between this it's a few minutes of a complete jog. Half marathon and marathon you're running for a long time at a 'fast' pace. How can you prepare for that when your longest sustained effort is 10 minutes or less? I may have missed these longer sessions, but typically the workouts are relatively short duration efforts around 10k-half marathon effort with a very slow jog between. I'm not saying they need to race a half marathon in practice, but they could get some long efforts at a faster over-all pace with some longer reps or faster 'off' portions of a fartlek. Or more long tempos. Most of the training is good, but I think this stuff is lacking.

I will only comment on Drew Hunter because I feel he is being held back.

In only care about winning, not times. To win championships you need speed. And I mean speed.

Case and point- Saladbars group. There are plenty of articles and videos on the internet that show Galen Rupp a 5k/10k man at the time (so longer than Drew) doing workings with 12s 100s, 25s 200s, etc. And that is what it takes to develop to where Rupp, Farah, Centro could close in 52 like it was nothing. Doing honest to God hard and fast speedwork. Nothing like thatin Tinmans plan.

Look at this race- hunter gets obliderated and embarassed over the last 200. No speed and it isn't a fast race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwz6jvpDXK8&ab_channel=NBCSports

So the usual response is this is that Drew will develop his speed over time. That young galen rupp didn't have speed, etc.

And that is my criticism- nothing in the Tinman training plan develops the speed to WIN RACES.

aluminum man wrote:

fact checker 642572498 wrote:

He ran a dismal 2:24 in the olympic trials marathon when it counted.

I think he fell and injured himself during the race, but that's not really the point.

My problem with Tinman is that they run very little mileage for 10K/Marathon specialists and they never seem to do any really hard anaerobic or VO2 workouts even in season. Hence, a lot of wasted potential. Worst of all, they can't even stay injury free off this kind of training. Of course, the relentless self-promotion and endless hyping of Tinman training doesn't help them much either.

If you fall in a road marathon something else is going on

My problem with TM is that he creates a solo training silo for individual hs athletes, often at the expense of their hs teams, which undermines those hs coaches and their authority. These guys/gals are often seen as "special/unique", i.e. better/superior. They're regularly on different training plans than their teammates. They are often doing totally different workouts than their teammates. They don't participate in a lot of the same races as their teammates. It almost seems as if it's beneath them to participate in their hs dual meets sometimes, cause it's all about that special out-of-state Invite or elite racing event that their teammates aren't involved in. It creates a lot of tension and resentment among their non TM coached hs teammates. TM should really think about offering his training methods/techniques in conjunction with the hs coach, to the entire team, or have his kids run/train with his own "elite" national or regional squad, as opposed to their hs team, rather than creating disparities. You're either all in with your team or you're not. That's my issue, for what it's worth.

Mo farah fell in an olympic 10k, still won it.

Fischer fell in a marathon with much more time to make up the lost ground and he ran 6 minutes slower than the qualifying standard.

Sure but that really isn't a problem with the training. As a kid what do you do if you are pretty talented (lets say you ran like a 4:50 mile in 8th grade) and you are going to a HS where the fastest kid for the past 10 years is a 4:37 (i.e. shitting coaching...)? And it isn't like there is much of circuit outside of HS for these kids to run in. At high levels of sports lots of kids get private coaches (QB, hitting, pitching,....)

Lack of speed development and higher volume given the ease of workouts. One of the really good features about Tinman's philosophy is that most of the time the workouts aren't super hard so you can recover. He also preaches 5K+ 1:30-2:00 per mile for an easy day pace. At the elite level that means you can run more volume. So run more volume.

The periodization model has changed significantly in the last 20 years. I don't think Tinman is way out of line here and if you look at some of his late season workouts there are plenty of very hard, high-quality, race specific workouts.

Lack of speed development appears to be Tinman not thinking the higher-end development is worth wasting a session on, he would rather go hills after CV. Once again, if you incorporate more training sessions then you can afford to have one every now and then.

aluminum man wrote:

fact checker 642572498 wrote:

He ran a dismal 2:24 in the olympic trials marathon when it counted.

I think he fell and injured himself during the race, but that's not really the point.

My problem with Tinman is that they run very little mileage for 10K/Marathon specialists and they never seem to do any really hard anaerobic or VO2 workouts even in season. Hence, a lot of wasted potential. Worst of all, they can't even stay injury free off this kind of training. Of course, the relentless self-promotion and endless hyping of Tinman training doesn't help them much either.

The only guy I have seen a complete schedule for is Reed and that is sort of my take a away. There are some 5k and 3k paced work but the volume is low. For example here is a workout

3 x 800/400 @5K + 3 x 200/200 @Mile

You would sort of expect to be doing more like 6-8x800. I want to say there were only a couple of workotus that I saw where he got more than 5k of running at 5k pace. I pretty much agree with Tinman that you don't want to do Vo2max workouts like that every week but I think doing a half dozen of them throughout your cycle makes sense.

Total mileage is also a bit low (lots of 70/80 weeks and only a couple 100s) but I know there was some injuries involved and there looks to be a general trend of going from 70/80 2 years ago to more like 85-100 today. And I am never sure if I am reading someone elses chart right but it feels like he doesn't do a ton of doubles which is sort of an odd choice. Seems like adding some 30 min morning runs on work out days and breaking some of the easy 60min runs into 2x45 min runs wold be the way to up training volume while not adding a ton of stress. But I don't know what type of lifestyle constraints (like a job or school) that he might have.

Dr. Pepper wrote:

Lack of speed development appears to be Tinman not thinking the higher-end development is worth wasting a session on, he would rather go hills after CV.

And until this changed his runners won't be able to win tactical championship races.

Problem is that your body only makes adaptations when there is stress. Tinman's workouts are all not long enough or not fast enough. You will only get minimal adaptations from it.

What truly makes a great coach is being able to train the athletes extremely hard - high mileage and high intensity - while keeping them healthy and not burned out. Tinman can't keep his athletes healthy on low volume and low intensity. He is a hack.

Well said. We worked out much harder in college, and most of our guys were better than the Tinman guys. No we weren't better than drew hunter, but we didn't have drew hunters talent.

For example look at the intensity of these galen rupp workouts. I havent seen the Tinmen guys do anything close. These are rupps POST RACE workouts and are harder than the Tinmen workouts.

True, elite level success.

lzlevee wrote:

what would you add that is currently not there?

Results? Good times? Significant improvement?

TO be fair, the Ingbretsens to not do a ton of pure speed development aside from hills and they tend to be doing pretty damn well late in races.

lzlevee wrote:

TO be fair, the Ingbretsens to not do a ton of pure speed development aside from hills and they tend to be doing pretty damn well late in races.

To some extent, yes. But Jakob got pounced on in the last 200 of the 5000 in Doha. I do worry about his closing speed. He may be talented and good enough that it doesn't matter, though.

But when’s the last time Tinman got an athlete to world championship finals?

fact checker 642572498 wrote:

lzlevee wrote:

The handful of 61-62 half marathons are what really stick out to me as there is something there that is working pretty well. which may point to building solid all around fitness as a half marathon would represent, but the peaking aspect may leave something to be desired.

You really are ignorant. There is nothing special about 61-62 in the half marathon. Any college athlete that ran sub 14 in the 5k should be able to get to 61-62 pretty easily within a few years of graduating. Especially when training at altitude. Especially with current shoe technology. Especially running on extremely flat courses.

esp since fact checker says so

For high school and masters the program appears solid. Moderate mileage and moderate workouts. American high school programs tend to over race, so the emphasis on moderate workouts is spot on. Masters need more recovery, so again the moderate workouts are spot on.

However for the world class athlete that has all day to recover and plan their own schedule, it lacks to push them hard enough. Not enough total volume, tempo volume, and intensity.

Not that every run needs to be intense but the occasional super hero workout is needed.

Volume is too low and needs to be 100-120 mpw

Tempo volume is to low and needs to be 20-25 mpw

Needs the occasional puke workout to help mentally as much physically

What is his system missing? How about someone getting through 5 months without an injury.

Apart from the new 3 additions, every single athlete in TME has been injured at least twice since starting with him. It is natural to get some injured athletes but the frequency at which his athletes are pulling up, is insane.