Been catching up on some threads about people in love with Tinman and people that are not so much in love.
I actually think the training is really, really solid, but for those haters, what would you add that is currently not there?
Been catching up on some threads about people in love with Tinman and people that are not so much in love.
I actually think the training is really, really solid, but for those haters, what would you add that is currently not there?
They’re all soft and the training sucks. People have gotten slower. Drew is holding himself back training under Schwartz. All they are is a group that tries to making everything dramatic. If they got out of their feelings every once in a while maybe they’d run faster
lzlevee wrote:
Been catching up on some threads about people in love with Tinman and people that are not so much in love.
I actually think the training is really, really solid, but for those haters, what would you add that is currently not there?
For elite athletes it tends to break down along the lines of
a) no speed development. Running 60s at the end of the workout is missing out on the reason to to them
b) Not quite hard work both in terms of total volume and quality work. You can get into really good shape doing 90% but at some point you have to do that last 10% which I haven't seen them do in the posted schedules/workouts. Have a feeling in another 5 years ever elite guy is going to be doing those double workout days at least once/week.
That being said for average HS/nonelite dudes a schedule of running like
a) ~10k pace for 20-30mins worth of intervals. Do a couple 200/400ms at 1500m pace at the end
b) ~HM/MP pace for 20-40 mins (intervals or continuous). do a couple 200/400s at 1500m pace
c) get in a 70-90 min run
is a solid core program off of which to do a 8-12 event specific block when your ready for it.
smh69 wrote:
They’re all soft and the training sucks. People have gotten slower. Drew is holding himself back training under Schwartz. All they are is a group that tries to making everything dramatic. If they got out of their feelings every once in a while maybe they’d run faster
Please answer the question like the subsequent poster did.
Is there a system for sub-elites you feel is better?
lzlevee wrote:
Is there a system for sub-elites you feel is better?
I would argue that you could do daniels, Pfitzinger, Hansons, Lydiard, coe multipace or a zillion other plans and be in roughly the same ballpark. I might prefer the ones that emphasis the slower quality aerobic paces (10k-MP) but some of that is a personal preference.
It's not really the training people have an issue with, it's the "this way is the best way" and "we work harder than everyone" vibe that comes from him and the rest of the group
No one hates Tinman for his actual training system, as its pretty much the same as any other running group, except for maybe an emphasis on CV. The flaws in the program are pretty well summarized by the other poster in the thread, but besides that it's pretty solid. Most of the Tinman hate you see on here comes from their self-promotion on and off LRC (Parsons is behind the majority of it), their annoying shills like LateRunnerPhil and Tinman claiming his training system is revolutionary when 90% of it is standard stuff. No one would complain about Tinman if they didn't continue to hype themselves up constantly.
rare wrote:
No one hates Tinman for his actual training system, as its pretty much the same as any other running group, except for maybe an emphasis on CV. The flaws in the program are pretty well summarized by the other poster in the thread, but besides that it's pretty solid. Most of the Tinman hate you see on here comes from their self-promotion on and off LRC (Parsons is behind the majority of it), their annoying shills like LateRunnerPhil and Tinman claiming his training system is revolutionary when 90% of it is standard stuff. No one would complain about Tinman if they didn't continue to hype themselves up constantly.
Agreed - so what would you add/take away?
lzlevee wrote:
Been catching up on some threads about people in love with Tinman and people that are not so much in love.
I actually think the training is really, really solid, but for those haters, what would you add that is currently not there?
If you take a Lydiard training pyramid, Tinman sticks his runners in the 2nd and 3rd phase year round. The result of this is a quick improvement followed by a hard plateau and very inconsistent race results. They don't build a big enough base and they don't have a sharp enough peak to ever get past sub elite. It's a fine program for someone who wants to be in semi good shape throughout the year, but a really bad program for someone who is trying to make an Olympic team.
lzlevee wrote:
rare wrote:
No one hates Tinman for his actual training system, as its pretty much the same as any other running group, except for maybe an emphasis on CV. The flaws in the program are pretty well summarized by the other poster in the thread, but besides that it's pretty solid. Most of the Tinman hate you see on here comes from their self-promotion on and off LRC (Parsons is behind the majority of it), their annoying shills like LateRunnerPhil and Tinman claiming his training system is revolutionary when 90% of it is standard stuff. No one would complain about Tinman if they didn't continue to hype themselves up constantly.
Agreed - so what would you add/take away?
For pretty much all of TME, I actually think Tinman’s training is good enough. The exception is Drew Hunter, who needs more speed development. He can clearly hang with the pack in a 5k until the last lap as shown in 2019 USAs, but he can’t kick well enough (although he was supposedly injured at that point). The poster above is pretty much right on what Tinman training needs for an actually elite runner, which is more speed work (100s-200s, fast 400s etc.).
runnerguy2016 wrote:
lzlevee wrote:
Been catching up on some threads about people in love with Tinman and people that are not so much in love.
I actually think the training is really, really solid, but for those haters, what would you add that is currently not there?
If you take a Lydiard training pyramid, Tinman sticks his runners in the 2nd and 3rd phase year round. The result of this is a quick improvement followed by a hard plateau and very inconsistent race results. They don't build a big enough base and they don't have a sharp enough peak to ever get past sub elite. It's a fine program for someone who wants to be in semi good shape throughout the year, but a really bad program for someone who is trying to make an Olympic team.
The general trend over the past 30 years has been moving away from the lydiard pyramid with a lot more quality in the base. Lydiard definitely was a fan of more volume in general though and his sharpening phase was much more intense.....
runnerguy2016 wrote:
lzlevee wrote:
Been catching up on some threads about people in love with Tinman and people that are not so much in love.
I actually think the training is really, really solid, but for those haters, what would you add that is currently not there?
If you take a Lydiard training pyramid, Tinman sticks his runners in the 2nd and 3rd phase year round. The result of this is a quick improvement followed by a hard plateau and very inconsistent race results. They don't build a big enough base and they don't have a sharp enough peak to ever get past sub elite. It's a fine program for someone who wants to be in semi good shape throughout the year, but a really bad program for someone who is trying to make an Olympic team.
One might argue that this isn't so different from Aussie complex training a la DeCastella, Moneghetti, etc. The difference is that those guys raced a lot, a practice which seems to have fallen out of favor.
The handful of 61-62 half marathons are what really stick out to me as there is something there that is working pretty well. which may point to building solid all around fitness as a half marathon would represent, but the peaking aspect may leave something to be desired.
The issue is a lack of periodization. They basically do 10k pace “CV” and some marathon pace year round with a smaller amount of 1500-5k work as race prep
Issue with than is besides drew really, everyone else is a 3000 and up runner. If you’re a 10k runner doing 10k pace year round You’re not leaving room to improve once you get to your peak race. It would be like doing the same workout every week all year and doing it 1-2 seconds faster every week.
Works a little better for 1500 guys you do need some work above threshold during the base phase for metabolic purposes.
There isn’t enough variety really. A “proper” training plan should be like a symphony, different paces all coming together to meet in the final couple weeks off a season, tapering is like the calm before the storm. And when you reach your final race, the grand finale. Instead tinman training is like listening on a solo musician. Any one little mistake is amplified because they are the only ones playing.
They have had some good results here and there, but not enough to convince me their training is reliable. It’s also very strange that many of their guys are currently injured (anyone have a list of how many?)
lzlevee wrote:
The handful of 61-62 half marathons are what really stick out to me as there is something there that is working pretty well. which may point to building solid all around fitness as a half marathon would represent, but the peaking aspect may leave something to be desired.
You really are ignorant. There is nothing special about 61-62 in the half marathon. Any college athlete that ran sub 14 in the 5k should be able to get to 61-62 pretty easily within a few years of graduating. Especially when training at altitude. Especially with current shoe technology. Especially running on extremely flat courses.
fact checker 642572498 wrote:
lzlevee wrote:
The handful of 61-62 half marathons are what really stick out to me as there is something there that is working pretty well. which may point to building solid all around fitness as a half marathon would represent, but the peaking aspect may leave something to be desired.
You really are ignorant. There is nothing special about 61-62 in the half marathon. Any college athlete that ran sub 14 in the 5k should be able to get to 61-62 pretty easily within a few years of graduating. Especially when training at altitude. Especially with current shoe technology. Especially running on extremely flat courses.
And yet only 8 americans have ever run 61 and and 44 have run 62. Seems like if any sub 14 guy can do this we should have a heck of a lot more. They all most be picking some really bad coaches given how easy it should be. It is real easy to say these guys should keep getting better. Few do.
dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:
fact checker 642572498 wrote:
You really are ignorant. There is nothing special about 61-62 in the half marathon. Any college athlete that ran sub 14 in the 5k should be able to get to 61-62 pretty easily within a few years of graduating. Especially when training at altitude. Especially with current shoe technology. Especially running on extremely flat courses.
And yet only 8 americans have ever run 61 and and 44 have run 62. Seems like if any sub 14 guy can do this we should have a heck of a lot more. They all most be picking some really bad coaches given how easy it should be. It is real easy to say these guys should keep getting better. Few do.
You LIE. 8 americans have run SUB 61 and 44 have run SUB 62. 100 have run sub 63, which is the slow limit I gave (I said 61-62). Most sub 14 guys would rather start a real career than be a sub-elite runner making 15k per year.
And that's a skewed way to look at it because nobody cares about the half marathon. Top 5k/10k runners rarely run it, and top marathoners rarely run it. Being quick at the half marathon has little correlation with being good at the marathon or even at the 10k.
If a 4:59 miler starts talking about how he runs a 4 min mile do you think that maks sense or do you think he is full of crap? Sure sure lets use 100. There were 80 kids who ran 14 min 5000m in 2019 in DI. Sure seems like a lot of kids should be running faster. And no if you look at the 5k/10k or marathon lists you aren't going to see a lot of 13:30/28/2:10 performers either. 62mins is getting fast.
dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:
If a 4:59 miler starts talking about how he runs a 4 min mile do you think that maks sense or do you think he is full of crap? Sure sure lets use 100. There were 80 kids who ran 14 min 5000m in 2019 in DI. Sure seems like a lot of kids should be running faster. And no if you look at the 5k/10k or marathon lists you aren't going to see a lot of 13:30/28/2:10 performers either. 62mins is getting fast.
Because the vast majority of those guys would rather start their real careers and begin making good money. I bet Reed Fischer has zero dollars in a retirement account and is living off money his mommy and daddy send to him.
He ran a dismal 2:24 in the olympic trials marathon when it counted.
Des Linden: "The entire sport" has changed since she first started running Boston.
Am I living in the twilight zone? The Boston Marathon weather was terrible!
Ryan Eiler, 3rd American man at Boston, almost out of nowhere
Matt Choi was drinking beer halfway through the Boston Marathon
2024 College Track & Field Open Coaching Positions Discussion