Do the best HS programs coach different top runners differently?

A 2:05 guy can't complete the same workouts as a 1:56 guy.

Coach watching wrote:

A 2:05 guy can't complete the same workouts as a 1:56 guy.

Except their 5k pace workouts apparently

If you can run a 16 min 5k but manage just a 2:05 800 I would wonder what is wrong with you.

wake up bro wrote:

If you can run a 16 min 5k but manage just a 2:05 800 I would wonder what is wrong with you.

I would worry more about a 1:56 guy who can only run 16 mins. Should be down around 15 with that type of speed.:)

Seriously those guys are close enough in ability that doing the same work can make sense. The faster guy will do 800 (and probably 1500m work) a bit quicker but the the general training is the same. Now if one guy runs the 800m in track and the other is doing the 3200m, you might train differently. But if both are running XC? They can do the same rough workouts and be fine. Now if your 20 min XC runner should be doing the same workouts as either of them is a different question...

AFAIK Joe Newton--who I think would qualify as having one of the best high school programs--had the same workout for all the guys in his top group.

Of course, he still had a lot of flexibility to accommodate things like injury and fatigue, but I think the basic plan was the same for his top group.

Looking back even farther, I believe Bob Timmons (Jim Ryun's HS and college coach) assigned the same workout to his whole group. I don't think Ryun was the only one doing 40 quarters, though of course he did them faster than others.

i am not close to being a top coach, but I assign the same basic plan to all of my top runners. But they don't all do the exact same thing. Different kids might be asked to complete a different number of reps, or the length of their reps might be different. sometimes you differentiate going in, other times you make adjustments based on what you are seeing in the moment.

Going the opposite direction, I've had two kids that could run 1:58 in the 800, but their 5ks were 15:45 vs 17:15.

The 15:45 kid will handle way more volume than the 17:15 kid. And of course the training will look quite a bit different, as one might obviously conclude that one guy is a 400/800 type vs the other being a 800-3200 type.

It is the same thing with the speed vs endurance 16:00 5k guy. That 2:05 guy probably needs and handles much more volume to get his 16:00. The 1:56 guy might break down on the mileage the 2:05 guy handles. Hopefully as a coach, you get to work with these guys for 4 or more years, and you are able to figure out what they handle and what they can't.

Same with Walt Lange at Jesuit. Everyone does essentially the same workout. The super-elites might run 1-2 more intervals during a workout on rare occasions. The major change in the training I saw was when the top guys competed after the regular season (Pan-Am, NXN, et al). In those cases the workouts were designed purely for the elite guy not the team as a whole.

I don't think the coaches from the best HS programs are going to bite back on here except for maybe Doug Soles at Great Oak. He likes to bite back on the MB's. Other then him you're just going to get guys saying stuff second hand.

same workouts but different paces on faster stuff but no reason to switch things up imo

Now steve magnes may argue that the 1:56 guy is fasttwitch while the 2:05 guy is slowtwitch so the fasttwitch guy will need to make sure easy runs are kept easier (at least its more important for him). This is because the fasttwitch guy will use some of those fasttwitch muscles if he were to go faster than true easy pace and will fatigue himself more for the quality sessions. Slowtwitch guy may also have more tempo/long efforts mixed in while the fasttwitch guy will have more fartleks or instead of doing a 5 mile tempo might do 5xmile at tempo w/ 1 minute rest as it likely suits them better

additionally, if a runner is a total newbie they get a different training

believe tinman has said before that goal for youth runners is to be running an hour a day before thinking about workouts

There are 1000 guys every year who run 1:56. About 20 of them break 15 minutes. Many 1:50 guys don't break 16 minutes. Sowinski has a 1:44 PR and a 17 minute 5k.

Funny that you say that. The faster the guy at shorter distances, the slower they normally do their easy days.

I am in this exact scenario. My teammate and I race xc 5k's pretty much together sub 16, but on the track we are super different. I broke 2(800) before I broke 10(3200) two years ago, and he likely would struggle to go under 2:04-05 right now. However, he cuhlapped me in a road HM, and likely would at any distance over 10k .

I drop him on short fast track stuff, and he drops me on long tempos. Same workouts though.

I give my kids options on some of their non-workout type days. Your first kid would likely pick an easy fartlek workout such as 50-55 mins with 10x 20 second pickups at 3200/1600 effort and 40 second jogs. Your second kid would likely pick a 25 min easy run, back to the track or turf, and 8-10x 100 meters at 1600 pace with jog 100 recovery, followed by some easy running afterwards to get to 50 mins or so. Second kid might also have the option to run some Verheul style 200s at 3200/1600 pace with short walk ins and walk outs to the 200s and jog the rest of the 200 for rest. Total time for both kids would be similar with second kid possibly a little less mileage. First kid could pick the same workouts as second kid, but I find that they try it and realize they like the fartlek better.

On actual workout days (tempo, threshold reps, etc) both boys would have a similar workout with similar times, though for a sustained tempo run, your second kid might have it broken into 2x 12 minutes with a 1 min jog instead of a straight 25 mins.

I like my kids to actually think about the kind of training that their body responds to, and what kinds of pre-workout training helps them feel ready for their big workout days.

healthy dude wrote:

There are 1000 guys every year who run 1:56. About 20 of them break 15 minutes. Many 1:50 guys don't break 16 minutes. Sowinski has a 1:44 PR and a 17 minute 5k.

If Sowinski was offered 1 million dollars if he could break 17, woud you bet against him?:) These 800m guys are slow cause they don't train for endurance.

The point is that running a 16:00 with 2:05 speed isn't some crazy level of endurance. You would expect the average 2:05 guy who does distance to run ~4:40 mile and a 16:00 5000m. I know we also had 2-3 of these kids every year who were running 2:04-2:06 and 4:40-4:45 miles and 9:50-10:10 3200m . Those were the backbone of our XC team. Get 1 stud (the kid who runs 1:58/4:30/15:30) and a 5th man (some kid who can run 16:40) and you were a contender to win our division in state every year. And on your XC team there are tons of kids with 57 type 400m speed who could run 2:05. Not many with the sub 54 speed you need to threaten 1:56. Occasionally we would get the more endurance monster who would run 2:10/4:45/15:50 but they were pretty rare.

I don't know what kind of XC courses you are used to but my state has only about 20 guys go sub 16 even though 200 will go sub 2:05. Sub 16 guys normally run 1:57-4:25-9:30. 2:05 guys normally run 17:30.

Sowinski ran xc in HS. He ran 1:54 in track and 17 minutes in xc.