Move over EPO, there's a new guy in town: H7379

Ciro wrote:

zxcvxvzc wrote:

Coe was educated and trained at Loughborough University during the very same period, previously documented by news clips here on this website, where they were advertising for test subjects for steroid tests. It was actually at that time that he improved spectacularly from a run of the mill good prospect, one with times no better than many American juniors, to one of the greatest ever. It was also in the era of blood doping with impunity when he got the toxoplasmosis, a very rare disease for healthy young men who were not blood doping.

That’s pretty damning. I’d like to think Coe was clean but clearly he’s happy to turn a blind eye to it now, so likely he did then too.

I hate reducing the criteria for doping to "what I believe is possible" but the one thing about Coe that has struck me as odd is a 46.** 400m relay split and a win over Eamon Coghlan (European 5000m Champion), Mike McCleod (Olympic Gold medalist at 10000m if you take the admitted doper Cova out) and Charlie Spedding (third Olympic Marathon) over 4 miles on road, breaking Brendan Foster's record.

Physiologically that needs such an extra-ordinary range of attributes that it takes some swallowing.

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

- Perhaps the WA (IAAF) is waiting for the criminal proceedings to finish, so as not to interfere, or to maximize their evidence.

Sounds unlikely, considering that Balla was banned for four years by the AIU, while awaiting trial in a Spanish court.

rekrunner wrote:

- For those who argue to make doping criminal, this is what we can expect from making doping criminal -- lengthy justice.

Sounds irrelevant, considering that Balla was banned for four years by the AIU, while awaiting trial in a Spanish court.

Again, note that without criminalization of doping, there would have been no raid. Balla and Aden would still freely compete/coach. Personally I prefer the outcome of both of them out the picture since 2016.

I'm not so sure about your facts.

The IAAF only acted against Balla after the Spanish judge dismissed his case.

It only makes sense to criminalize supplying and adminstering by coaches/doctors/support staff, like in Spain.

Oh Please wrote:

Along with spring loaded shoes, no wonder WR are being set every other race.

Spring loaded shoes can't make you faster, it's not how running works. But they sure have been a good cover story. 90% of posters here were convinced they were the reason, even though half the new records were on the track.

Nothing new here. Just watched the ‘84 Olympic 5000. Hard to watch the top 3 bounce around the track with hardly any effort and then finish looking like they had just gone on a brisk walk. Aouita looked like he could have turned around and ran another.

gdgjj wrote:

Nothing new here. Just watched the ‘84 Olympic 5000. Hard to watch the top 3 bounce around the track with hardly any effort and then finish looking like they had just gone on a brisk walk. Aouita looked like he could have turned around and ran another.

A bit like Coe running 1:41, Cheptegei running 12:35, Kipchoge running 2:01:39, etc.

Great performances often look effortless.

Pajac wrote:

gdgjj wrote:

Nothing new here. Just watched the ‘84 Olympic 5000. Hard to watch the top 3 bounce around the track with hardly any effort and then finish looking like they had just gone on a brisk walk. Aouita looked like he could have turned around and ran another.

A bit like Coe running 1:41, Cheptegei running 12:35, Kipchoge running 2:01:39, etc.

Great performances often look effortless.

Like I said, nothing new.

Coevett wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Yeah, or Coe.

Try using logic for once.

Did Coe suddenly start producing stellar performances in 83/84 after being a 1:50/3:45/14:00 runner all his previous career?

I doubt anyone was using EPO in 83! The first cases of athletes using it were the early 90’s, and the standards/times in middle and distance events would have improved markedly in the late 80’s if EPO was available and being used. In fact, the standard in 1500m didn’t really improve after 1986 until 1992. I seem to recall there were a few users in cycling, which historically seemed to pre date athletics with new PEDs, right at the end of the 80’s. Therefore Aouita’s relatively meteoric rise, drug induced or not, wasn’t down to EPO imo.

zxcvxvzc wrote:

Coe was educated and trained at Loughborough University during the very same period, previously documented by news clips here on this website, where they were advertising for test subjects for steroid tests. It was actually at that time that he improved spectacularly from a run of the mill good prospect, one with times no better than many American juniors, to one of the greatest ever. It was also in the era of blood doping with impunity when he got the toxoplasmosis, a very rare disease for healthy young men who were not blood doping.

There is so much ‘spin’ in your post that I wouldn’t be surprised if you sell washing machines for a living!

Firstly, Loughborough was and continues to be predominately a sports university, so it would be quite natural for students there to be looking into and carrying out research on things sports related. Please provide a link that states when Loughborough carries out this research and mentions that they were using students as subjects? Never seen or heard any such links on these forums. Coe was there at the same time as Moorcroft, McGeorge, Williamson, yet they didn’t start breaking records in 79! Maybe Coe was allowed to take steroids and the others weren’t!? Lol.

Secondly, Coe was not a ‘run of the mill’ athlete before going to Loughborough at the end of 76. He was European Junior 1500m bronze medalist in 75, at 18, (beating Ray Flynn and Abascal), and European Indoor 800m champion a term into his University career, in Feb 77, missing the indoor WR by 0.2 secs. Stating him as a ‘run of the mill prospect’ is totally misleading.

Thirdly, toxoplasmosis is not a ‘very rare disease’ but rather a very common disease, with about a third of the world’s population having had it. It is almost universally picked up by eating contaminated (undercooked) meat, vegetables or water. There are very few cases of anyone catching it through blood transfusions, which were almost universally autologous at the time, making it impossible to catch from someone else’s blood. The symptoms are similar to flu or glandular fever and would cause little effect on an average healthy youngster with requisite rest. But with no diagnosis and a daily training regime, those effects would obviously last longer with someone not resting.

Can't be bothered to waste my time in addressing each of those 'opinions' in turn, but Coe has never defended convicted cheaters. He has always shown total disdain for the likes of Gatlin, Christie, the Russians, to name a few. He has done more to increase transparency and the catching of cheaters than any of the more recent IAAF Presidents. The reason why there has been so many busts in the last 4 or 5 years is exactly because of Coe's creation of the AIU and enforcing more rigorous and robust testing of one's own athletes in those countries where OOC testing was practically non existent prior to his tenure.

Cheating on his wife is none of our business and we are not privy to what was going on in their relationship. I'm pretty sure that the majority of posters on here and international athletes generally have 'cheated' on a partner at some point in their lives. It is totally irrelevant to this topic.

As for Diack, anyone who took over from him would have sung his praises at the time. It is called protocol. There is no evidence that Coe was aware of the bribery, cover up of Russia's behaviour or other corruption Diack was involved in, when he took over.

Pajac wrote:

gdgjj wrote:

Nothing new here. Just watched the ‘84 Olympic 5000. Hard to watch the top 3 bounce around the track with hardly any effort and then finish looking like they had just gone on a brisk walk. Aouita looked like he could have turned around and ran another.

A bit like Coe running 1:41, Cheptegei running 12:35, Kipchoge running 2:01:39, etc.

Great performances often look effortless.

I'm sorry but this just isn't the case for Coe's 1:41!

Photos of the finish and close up shots of his face down the home straight show a lot of strain and pain on his face. He was clearly winded after and took time to recover.

Ciro wrote:

zxcvxvzc wrote:

Coe was educated and trained at Loughborough University during the very same period, previously documented by news clips here on this website, where they were advertising for test subjects for steroid tests. It was actually at that time that he improved spectacularly from a run of the mill good prospect, one with times no better than many American juniors, to one of the greatest ever. It was also in the era of blood doping with impunity when he got the toxoplasmosis, a very rare disease for healthy young men who were not blood doping.

That’s pretty damning. I’d like to think Coe was clean but clearly he’s happy to turn a blind eye to it now, so likely he did then too.

WTH are you talking about? toxoplasmosis comes from cats. So idiotic.

Deanouk wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Try using logic for once.

Did Coe suddenly start producing stellar performances in 83/84 after being a 1:50/3:45/14:00 runner all his previous career?

I doubt anyone was using EPO in 83! The first cases of athletes using it were the early 90’s, and the standards/times in middle and distance events would have improved markedly in the late 80’s if EPO was available and being used. In fact, the standard in 1500m didn’t really improve after 1986 until 1992. I seem to recall there were a few users in cycling, which historically seemed to pre date athletics with new PEDs, right at the end of the 80’s. Therefore Aouita’s relatively meteoric rise, drug induced or not, wasn’t down to EPO imo.

You're making an assumption that everybody would have jumped on board with EPO immediately it became available. I don't believe there was a doping culture in middle-distance in the 80's.

Just checking to see if I was banned.

Standards did rise in the mid to late eighties. Yo had guys like Gonzales and Abascal all making big jumps in their late 20's as well as the ability to suddenly perform equally well at 5000m.

Part of that was probably due to HGH becoming widely available in 83, which of course Aouita led the way in.

You have the history of EPO wrong. Cyclists and speed skaters were using it by 88. Aouita had a Belgian doctor named Georges Mouton who was later arrested for supplying EPO to dozens of cyclists and Moroccoan runners.

The history of EPO use in sport is very interesting but whenever I try to create a thread on it, the mods delete it.

Coevett wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

I doubt anyone was using EPO in 83! The first cases of athletes using it were the early 90’s, and the standards/times in middle and distance events would have improved markedly in the late 80’s if EPO was available and being used. In fact, the standard in 1500m didn’t really improve after 1986 until 1992. I seem to recall there were a few users in cycling, which historically seemed to pre date athletics with new PEDs, right at the end of the 80’s. Therefore Aouita’s relatively meteoric rise, drug induced or not, wasn’t down to EPO imo.

You're making an assumption that everybody would have jumped on board with EPO immediately it became available. I don't believe there was a doping culture in middle-distance in the 80's.

You are both making an assumption that EPO can cause "meteoric rises" at that level, for men's middle distance events like 800m and 1500m.

C'mon rekrunner...don't be oblivious. You heard Covett : HGH became available in 83 and Aouita smoked a 3:29.46 in 85 - a 2 second improvement in one year from his previous PB!

Jump ahead to the rocket fuel era (where it's probably being combined with HGH) and you got Ramzi smoking a 3:29.14 (a several second improvement over a couple of years!!!) and Laâlou hitting a 3:29.53 - a two second improvement in one year!

These are alien jumps in performances in such short order for elites in the 1500. Not real performances - aided by high-performance PEDs.

And when you factor in the alien performance of the WR holder plus Iguider's sizzling 3:28 - that's a total of 5 Moroccans running under 3:30! The only other country with more is Kenya and their crazy performances. And Morocco is a small country and yet they churned out 5 sub-3:30 guys! ?

https://www.worldathletics.org/records/all-time-toplists/middlelong/1500-metres/outdoor/men/senior

Deanouk wrote:

Can't be bothered to waste my time in addressing each of those 'opinions' in turn, but Coe has never defended convicted cheaters.

Incorrect. See Salazar.

"can't be bothered", lol. Defending that cheat is what you are here for, isn't it?

Deanouk wrote:

Cheating on his wife is none of our business

Agreed - but thank you for agreeing that Coe is a cheater.

Deanouk wrote:

There is no evidence that Coe was aware of the bribery, cover up of Russia's behaviour or other corruption Diack was involved in, when he took over.

Also incorrect. See the various emails, texts and phone calls. Unless you believe that he didn't read them and misheard on the phone.

Coe cheated on his wife?

Details please. Might be nothing, might be something.

Doped to the Max wrote:

C'mon rekrunner...don't be oblivious. You heard Covett : HGH became available in 83 and Aouita smoked a 3:29.46 in 85 - a 2 second improvement in one year from his previous PB!

Jump ahead to the rocket fuel era (where it's probably being combined with HGH) and you got Ramzi smoking a 3:29.14 (a several second improvement over a couple of years!!!) and Laâlou hitting a 3:29.53 - a two second improvement in one year!

These are alien jumps in performances in such short order for elites in the 1500. Not real performances - aided by high-performance PEDs.

And when you factor in the alien performance of the WR holder plus Iguider's sizzling 3:28 - that's a total of 5 Moroccans running under 3:30! The only other country with more is Kenya and their crazy performances. And Morocco is a small country and yet they churned out 5 sub-3:30 guys! ?

Coevett specifically said EPO in 1983. I did not comment on HGH or other PEDs.

Ramzi and Laâlou may be "smoking", but it is still an unproven assumption that EPO has caused, or even can cause, these improvements at this level for the men in the 1500m.

Examples of five Moroccans running sub-3:30 do next to nothing to further the argument that EPO is more than an assumption, because proof by example, even 5 examples, is actually not a proof. You should know by now that these are fallacies. Furthermore, it has not been established that all 5 of these Moroccans took EPO or any form of blood doping, so they don't even meet the initial prerequisite necessary to show that EPO was the cause.

Using colorful emotional terms like "rocket fuel", "smoking", "sizzling", "alien jumps" and "crazy" in one post, and the excessive use of italics and bold fonts in every post, only seem to underscore the lack of genuinely intellectual substantial arguments.

Sub wrote:

Coe cheated on his wife?

Details please. Might be nothing, might be something.