Why is gender fluid, but race isn’t?

And age vs biological age. I am an 8 year old now, can I go to school please! Oh, I just broke the V70 men’s WR for everything, don’t judge. Pathetic.

Life must be very confusing for you.

Those are the English language definitions that don’t reflect the definition of the entire population on earth. In fact, only a small minority of people in the world use that definition of gender, and it being fluid.

Also, dictionary guy, look up the “denotative” and “contrastive” meaning of words.

Try bringing your fluid gender nonsense to a parents “gender reveal” party.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Life must be very confusing for you.

Self-projection?

can a tranny man get a women's xc scholarship?

o just wrote:

Those are the English language definitions that don’t reflect the definition of the entire population on earth. In fact, only a small minority of people in the world use that definition of gender, and it being fluid.

Also, dictionary guy, look up the “denotative” and “contrastive” meaning of words.

Try bringing your fluid gender nonsense to a parents “gender reveal” party.

The English language definitions say it is a function of society and culture and can vary from society to society.

This relaxed definition covers every society.

The WHO is an organization of the United Nations, most likely representing the majority of the entire population of the earth.

I haven't heard of gender reveals before -- sounded like a college orgy, or spring break. Gender reveal parties look like a way to celebrate your future babies genitals. I guess we all worship what we want. Must be awkward for some parents, when their daughters develop deep voices, muscular chests, and facial hair, and want to date other girls.

I looked up "denotative" and "contrastive" -- thanks for the tip.

NotPC wrote:

can a tranny man get a women's xc scholarship?

I'm in favor of preserving the integrity of women's events, and excluding those who benefit from higher levels of naturally produced testosterone.

To paraphrase what Spock said before he died, "the rights of the many outweigh the rights of the few".

It’s denotative and connotative meaning of words.

You must live under a rock if you’ve never heard of a gender reveal party. A gender reveal party cause drowsiness the recent fire in California.

Google “gender reveal party” it’s a widely accepted celebration for a man and a woman to celebrate the gender of their child.

What is the the percentage of people who want to alter their gender? How many zeros before the 1 do you need. It’s surely way less 1%.

Stop acting as if the entire population uses your definition of gender. Most people view the term to mean either a boy or a girl.

Your fringe views are just that, fringe views not accepted by most people.

If you ask a pregnant lady about the gender of her unborn child, you Surely don’t expect her to say we are waiting from the baby to decide.

Notice how I had to use the prefix Her there too, because you have to be a Her to carry a human fetus to term in her womb.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Life must be very confusing for you.

Self-projection?

So which gender are you, amongst the 58 you have identified? Filling in forms must be interesting for you. "Other"?

Armstronglivs wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Self-projection?

So which gender are you, amongst the 58 you have identified? Filling in forms must be interesting for you. "Other"?

On forms, I check "male".

What's your deal? I thought we were in agreement with respect to the social and cultural aspect of gender versus biological.

Gender reveal parties were "invented" after my last daughter was born. My wife has never heard of them either. She said it sounds American (but not in a good way).

I don't know which "fringe" views you believe I have expressed. It's not like I quoted the "urban dictionary":

"A societal construct that is, in actuality, about as useless and restrictive as race."

"your mode of self-reflection or ID dealing with how you see yourself (or don't see yourself) in terms of your sex:

there are two sexes, but countless genders."

And these are not "my definitions".

For the meaning of English words, there is hardly a better source than the Oxford English Dictionary, described in Wikipedia as:

"The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is the principal historical dictionary of the English language"

And WHO better to represent the world's views than a United Nations organization?

But please, go ahead and provide your authoritative source. (Hint: saying "most people" is a lost argument).

And this thread is clearly not about biological sex, limiting your ability to change to drastic gender reassignment surgery and artificial hormone treatments.

But even restricting the definition to the shallow viewpoint of biological sex, there are still ambiguities that don't fit the normal male and female categories. This is not a fringe view, but heavily researched and documented.

I wonder if Caster Semenya's parents had had a gender reveal party, if they wouldn't change their minds today?

A man who decides that he is a woman has merely witnessed how woman act and dress and decides that he wants to do those things. How could he know how their brains are wired to declare that his is the same? Because once he can be a gendered woman, every other normal woman is not a woman because they are not the same as him. Do they then need to come up with an even new definition of what gender they are? If a man had never met a woman before, how could he claim to be a woman? He would not know what a woman was.

Dr. of Nothing wrote:

A man who decides that he is a woman has merely witnessed how woman act and dress and decides that he wants to do those things. How could he know how their brains are wired to declare that his is the same? Because once he can be a gendered woman, every other normal woman is not a woman because they are not the same as him. Do they then need to come up with an even new definition of what gender they are? If a man had never met a woman before, how could he claim to be a woman? He would not know what a woman was.

Firstly, well done to rekrunner to being able to have good discussion and info on the topic, shame more can't do that and actually investigate the topic.

To the quote above, and others, this isn't quite correct. Naturally there is some logic to how we define things. Would a man know what a "man" was (as opposed to a "person"), if they had grown up never having heard of a woman or their existence ? So sure, we label things depending on what we experience, and if we haven't experienced that, it's hard (or impossible) to label that thing. Not sure that helps with anything though.

I would disagree in that they would know something is different between themselves and other males though. There is (as latest knowledge implies) a biological component to gender in the brain. Eg..

"“All available evidence points towards a biologically determined identity,” Kranz says. “In [transgender] people you would say there was a mismatch in the testosterone milieu during the development of the body and then during development of the brain, so that the body was masculinized and the brain was feminized, or the other way around.”

from

This is to my knowledge the latest thinking, and how I tend to think of it as well. Your brain formation of 'gender' isn't aligned with the rest of the body.

Ultimately as rekrunner mentioned, the problem is often trying to fit a non-binary essence into a binary label. It often falls flat in many situations with the human body. The issues are complex, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't have a reasonable bash at trying to understand and enquire into the issues and not be offensive around them like some people here are.

Dr. of Nothing wrote:

A man who decides that he is a woman has merely witnessed how woman act and dress and decides that he wants to do those things. How could he know how their brains are wired to declare that his is the same? Because once he can be a gendered woman, every other normal woman is not a woman because they are not the same as him. Do they then need to come up with an even new definition of what gender they are? If a man had never met a woman before, how could he claim to be a woman? He would not know what a woman was.

I don't believe the set of terms are fixed -- see above where someone counted that facebook offered 58 gender definitions.

This man who decides he is a women would be considered "transgender", although many more specific terms exist.

Women who decide they are women would be considered "cisgender".

They are cisgender to you and a minority of people. Read your last sentence. It is circular. They are female to themselves and the majority f the population. The term was invented 20 years ago when transgenders hijacked the real definitions.

Dr. of Nothing wrote:

They are cisgender to you and a minority of people. Read your last sentence. It is circular. They are female to themselves and the majority f the population. The term was invented 20 years ago when transgenders hijacked the real definitions.

It's just a term, to help some indicate what they actually trying to describe. That's why we have these different words and language evolves :). The term is never the thing itself (erm unless talking about terms :)).

Naturally we could repeatedly say "those whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth", but it gets a tad cumbersome, and we could simply replace it with another word.

/me shrugs.

For the people talking about the "58 terms for gender" it doesn't mean there are 58 genders. It means there is a list of 58 TERMS you can use to describe your gender, and most of them are redundant.

The following are the 58 gender options identified by ABC News:

Agender

Androgyne

Androgynous

Bigender

Cis

Cisgender

Cis Female

Cis Male

Cis Man

Cis Woman

Cisgender Female

Cisgender Male

Cisgender Man

Cisgender Woman

Female to Male

FTM

Gender Fluid

Gender Nonconforming

Gender Questioning

Gender Variant

Genderqueer

Intersex

Male to Female

MTF

Neither

Neutrois

Non-binary

Other

Pangender

Trans

Trans*

Trans Female

Trans* Female

Trans Male

Trans* Male

Trans Man

Trans* Man

Trans Person

Trans* Person

Trans Woman

Trans* Woman

Transfeminine

Transgender

Transgender Female

Transgender Male

Transgender Man

Transgender Person

Transgender Woman

Transmasculine

Transsexual

Transsexual Female

Transsexual Male

Transsexual Man

Transsexual Person

Transsexual Woman

Two-Spirit

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

So which gender are you, amongst the 58 you have identified? Filling in forms must be interesting for you. "Other"?

On forms, I check "male".

What's your deal? I thought we were in agreement with respect to the social and cultural aspect of gender versus biological.

I think gender for most is defined by their biological sex, which is mostly male or female. The biological exceptions or variations are few, although more will identify their gender in a way not determined by biology. But again, most are male or female in gender as well as biology. The world is still largely binary, although I would say we now recognize it is not exclusively so and nor, in many societies, is it compulsory to fit the common biological model. That is why we now say "gender is fluid". You can opt out of the norm if you choose.

As we discussed earlier, this is more difficult to do in terms of race, because a lot of cultural norms, even "baggage", comes with racial identity in many societies. The world is not yet color-blind.

I don't disagree with most of this, but I think there's a couple of points still I'm not quite there with. Firstly, I think gender is determined partly through biology, i.e the brain develops not necessarily aligned with sex (sure for most it is, but I'm referencing the earlier link) but not only. That's just one layer. This is still biology in my mind. There is a physical difference there. But this is possibly semantics.

I'd also say gender isn't fluid because of someone choosing to express it differently (some may mean this). I'd actually say gender in itself is fluid without suddenly defining oneself as a different gender. Some people are naturally a mix as a spectrum. This can change over time, even more so depending on hormones etc, but I'm just trying to suggest the fluidity isn't because someone all of a sudden says they are now female (although they may do this as well), it's because it did actually change (on a spectrum).