Why do I suddenly suck at running and how do I stop sucking at running?

Also, don't listen to SalmonRice. I barely broke 19 minutes in high school and I'm about 4 minutes faster now. There are very few people that are total non-responders to training and I'm betting you're not one of them. A 20 minute 5k is not your ceiling -- you just need a solid training plan, consistency, and belief in yourself. Focus on all of the little things because they really add up.

Kicker wrote:

Spiel des Jahres, the differences pretty much even out across ability levels. For instance, threshold or 1 hr race pace is ~5k pace + 25 seconds/mile for most people, whether they run the 5k in 20 minutes or 13:30. For CV, it's about 30-35 minute race pace. Since he's a 20 minute 5k runner, he's already somewhat close to 30 minutes, so adding ~15 seconds/mile for a 30 minute race is reasonable. A 15 minute 5k runner, while further from 30 minutes, is more aerobically fit and can hold a higher percentage of their max speed for longer, so adding ~15 seconds/mile is also reasonable.

Do you agree?

I do like your use of hill reps and 200s at 3k-5k effort. I would consider them more aerobic power than anaerobic work

Thus far into my short coaching career, the most intuitive system I've found to adapt high level training for the diverse needs/abilities of high school athletes is a modified Horwill scale from 15->3k->5k->CV->T->M. Our top runners base their paces on a 5-second rule. Most of our female or JV male runners use a 6-second rule.

Our best female athlete last year matched up pretty well:

3200 - 12:00 (90s)

5k xc - 19:mid (95s)

15k road - 66' (106s)

Keeping her threshold workouts aiming for 7:00 was a lot safer and more predictive of her race efforts. This was a kid with a tendency for overtraining, and I worry that running threshold efforts at 6:45 (+25s/mi) would have absolutely left her a shell of herself. Likewise, our boys in our 20'-21' minute group ran their first CV intervals last week. The top kid cruised around 6:55s and raced 20:10 (Horwill predicts 20:18). The next kids were around 7:15 and raced 21:20/21:40 (Horwill predicts 21:25). The workout was plenty taxing as prescribed, and any faster pace would have had them redlining pretty fast.

There is a caveat. With seasoned runners who are training year-round, I tend to stick with peak training paces as training resumes. So, the girl I mentioned above would run 7:00 threshold efforts from early track season at which point in the season those efforts are probably closer to +25s/mi. And her 6:40 CV intervals progressively drop their recovery until by late season a CV session might look like 3'30" on (45" jog) and look a lot more like a threshold workout in terms of work:recovery ratio.

I think I see where the extra 10 seconds is coming from and honestly we would probably assign pretty close to the same paces. When I say current 5k race pace + 25 seconds/mile, I take into account how much slower the 5k would be in training, in regular running shoes, without competition. So really, it would be 5k race pace (from the actual race result) + 25 seconds + ~10 seconds or more depending on the conditions in practice. You're absolutely right that the paces "as is" would too hard for them.

You may be anemic. Get tested ASAP. Maybe the reason for the slower running.

OP - you have gotten some pretty good advice on here. Several coaches have chimed in which is really awesome. Kudos for them helping you out!

Lots of the advice you have gotten (while awesome) is very technical and targeted including my first post above, when I was 16 all of this would have gone over my head. You have a coach but you are looking for ways to improve outside of that system and this can be challenging. Regardless, it is frustrating to see regression in performance from one season to the next - so kudos to you for sticking with it and trying to figure it out.

Without knowing you and seeing your run, or knowing what your training has been like over the past 2-3 years we are all taking a shot in the dark. In my first post - I was really guessing that you are lacking aerobic fitness/base (not enough miles), but I don't have the full picture.

There is nothing I'm aware of that can transform a runner from a low 20's 5K to a low 18's 5K in short order, other than being born with talent and the right body type. I've seen several pretty talented runners (mostly freshman) go from high 19's/low 20's to high 17's or faster in their first season (2-3 months time span) - but those were kids who with no prior training could basically lace up and run 6:30 pace or a little better for 5K who responded well to consistent targeted training. It sounds like you were not too far off that trajectory your freshman year.

Before you do anything major I suggest you do two things:

Thing One: Determine if there is some kind of underlying issue or problem that is impacting your running and identify it if you can. From what I have read about you, I cannot pinpoint exactly what is going on - but I bet "you" can figure it it out and then determine the best path forward. It is at least worth exploring because you were a low-18 guy as a freshmen and maybe there is something fairly easy to address to get you back on that path.

WHAT IS THE UNDERLYING ISSUE? Many high school runners who experience regression or stagnant improvement have something else going on.

1. OUT OF SHAPE - If you didn't run over the summer (be honest with yourself) - that explains a lot, you probably don't have an aerobic base. That can be addressed but it takes time and commitment on your end. My first post was related to this a bit.

2. HEALTH/DIET CONCERN - If you are not feeling well (something is different) but have otherwise been training pretty well - go to the doctor and get checked out. Could be something easy to deal with like an iron deficiency, mono, diet change, or a hydration issue. Lots of other factors too consider like getting enough sleep, property hydration, is your diet OK (eating wrong stuff/not eating enough). Most of this can be addressed once identified.

3. OTHER SPORTS - If you are doing multiple sports and xc/track is not your primary that explains a lot too. If you are not training on a more or less year round basis then consistent improvement as a distance runner is compromised. While running is great training for most sports - other sports are not "generally" great training for distance running.

5. LOSS OF INTEREST/OTHER INTERESTS - many gradually lose interest in running and just are not into it anymore - could be due to school, work, family situation, girlfriend/boyfriend, or whatever. This is a pretty normal thing - i certainly went through this when I had kids.

4. PHYSICAL CHANGES - This is pretty common too. You may be physically quite different than you were when you were a 14/15 year old freshman. Hypothetically, if you were 5'11 140 pounds as a freshman and now your are 6'2 180+ pounds as a junior - this may explain a lot also.

Second: Talk to your coach.

I suggest you be honest about your frustration with the regression in your racing performances. If you can identify one or more underlying issues outlined above - that should be a big part of your conversation. I bet your coach is frustrated too and wants to help you get back on the right path. Honesty and respect will go a long way. If you want to increase your mileage and tweak your workouts I bet your coach will respect that - but if there is an underlying issue or two impacting your training/racing those also need to be discussed and addressed.

OP - good luck, I hope you get it figured out! Next time don't wait so long!

Get some bloodwork done. Ferritin levels and CBC.

Also do some fast running like 80m strides.

professional burnout wrote:

HS junior, haven't PRed in 2 years. Workouts are fine and everything and I keep getting better at workouts, but when I actually race it ends up going badly. For example a few weeks ago I did 4x1mile with 5 minutes between each interval and I was between 5:57 and 6:03 for all of them (on grass, fairly flat course). But my last 3 5K races have all been between 20:16 and 20:41, which means roughly 2 minutes off my PR. It doesn't seem dependent on mileage either because I've varied my mileage and had nothing change.

Is there anything specific I might be doing wrong? How do I fix this?

You're way overthinking this.

Kids change in your age range.

You just have to rideit out, or run it out. Its like any period of time. When stuff is going bad, find somethign to focus on that you can improve.

Maybe you aren't even a distance guy

Your recovery time on those mile reps is way too long. If you're doing them for race pace workouts then I'd cut it to 3 mins. If you're doing them as a LT session cut it to 1 or 1.5 min. The initial sessions will be hard and you'll feel a bit down because you will be running slower but after 6 weeks the gains will come.

You should also consider a new training plan. You said you do the same types of workouts every week. Well, don't be surprised if you hit a plateau. Your body isn't responding to those stressors anymore so you need something new. Maybe try alternating one week tempo run (20-40 mins at 80% of 5k race pace), the next week some sort of LT intervals (6x1 mile with 1.5 min jog rest, 3x2 miles with 3 mins jog rest). And do some hill work every couple of weeks, 10x1 minute on a steady incline to start then find a steeper hill

5mins between Mile reps is insanely long, almost equal recovery. maybe train smarter to run faster. try to take no more than 90s-2mins between mile reps..