Mo Farah is the reason we're not more excited about Cheptegei's 12:35...

12:37 being untouchable was a constant for many years. Now the record is suddenly gone. In reality, it was never as far away as we imagined.

I was skeptical at first when I clicked on this thread, but you made some very good points. Makes you wonder, what could Gebremeskel, Farah, Edris, Gebrhiwet and co run in a race like Chep had? The answer might be closer to 12:37 than anyone could have guessed. Hopefully Chep inspires more top distance/mid-d runners to chase world/natl. records and fast times.

poopcity wrote:

12:37 being untouchable was a constant for many years. Now the record is suddenly gone. In reality, it was never as far away as we imagined.

I was skeptical at first when I clicked on this thread, but you made some very good points. Makes you wonder, what could Gebremeskel, Farah, Edris, Gebrhiwet and co run in a race like Chep had? The answer might be closer to 12:37 than anyone could have guessed. Hopefully Chep inspires more top distance/mid-d runners to chase world/natl. records and fast times.

I agree! We may be about to enter a golden age of 5k on the track. We may (or may not) have 3-5 more guys under 12:40 in the next few years, and perhaps Cheptegei or someone else will take a go at 12:30...

Definitely an interesting take with a lot of validity to it.

At the same time, there would still be people here calling the record illegitimate no matter what, and the outside world at large wouldn’t care given the state of T&F and the state of the world. I don’t think I personally would be any more excited about the record—what are we supposed to do, run naked into the streets screaming “JOSHUAAAA”? I already did that.

I actually had a thought similar to this prior to 2 days prior to Cheptegei's attempt

What a silly argument. Rarity of real threats to the record make it more unique, not less.

bropl wrote:

What a silly argument. Rarity of real threats to the record make it more unique, not less.

Absolutely. But then the percentage of attempts that are succesful (100% in this case!) becomes much higher.

bropl wrote:

What a silly argument. Rarity of real threats to the record make it more unique, not less.

More unique, yes. But (perhaps) not as exciting.

When an ultrarunning record goes down, Letsrun collectively yawns and says "That's because there's no competition." The same thing to a much-smaller degree is (arguably) happening here. The road 200-mile record going down would be unique (I assume; I haven't looked into it), but we're not gonna get that excited about it because it isn't a record people have been trying to break every year for the last two decades.

` wrote:

bropl wrote:

What a silly argument. Rarity of real threats to the record make it more unique, not less.

More unique, yes. But (perhaps) not as exciting.

When an ultrarunning record goes down, Letsrun collectively yawns and says "That's because there's no competition." The same thing to a much-smaller degree is (arguably) happening here. The road 200-mile record going down would be unique (I assume; I haven't looked into it), but we're not gonna get that excited about it because it isn't a record people have been trying to break every year for the last two decades.

I don’t subscribe to your guys’ notion that no one has attempted it. No real threats is not the same as no attempts.

` wrote:

bropl wrote:

What a silly argument. Rarity of real threats to the record make it more unique, not less.

More unique, yes. But (perhaps) not as exciting.

When an ultrarunning record goes down, Letsrun collectively yawns and says "That's because there's no competition." The same thing to a much-smaller degree is (arguably) happening here. The road 200-mile record going down would be unique (I assume; I haven't looked into it), but we're not gonna get that excited about it because it isn't a record people have been trying to break every year for the last two decades.

No I would say it's very different.

12:35 is definitely special for this reason : it's about the shape you're in.

Trainers have real trackers, and know the range the athlete can go. And it's not set during competitive races. It's set during training.

Cheptegei went for the record because he knew (and his trainer knew) he was able to. Look at Monaco 5K World record on road. He said something along the lines (" I didn't know if I would be in shape, but once I started the run my legs were feeling good, so I thought let's go for the record"). This means even pre-race he knew he was probably in shape to beat the record.

Point is : If Mo Farah was able to break the 5K world record he would have done it. His trainer, and himself, would know if he's in shape to do it or not. His trainer, based on his training performances etc. know if he can go sub 12:55 / sub 12:45 / sub 12:40 etc.

And let's remind ourself that it's a pretty huge prize to break a 5k-10k world record, records from the legend Bekele. Not only because of the direct prize money, but also because of the marketing afterwards, it instantly gives you fame.

Conclusion : Until TODAY, only Cheptegei was able to.

I can't really appreciate Cheptegei's record for what it is because all I can think about is how much time he saved thanks to the pacing + fast track (and maybe the shoes). Even after Brussels 2018 I still didn't think any of the Ethiopians had a prayer of running 12:37 (let alone 12:35), but now I'm starting to wonder what they could do if they had a time trial set up for them like Cheptegei did. I don't think Cheptegei is any more talented than they are and all of them have noticeably better speed.

Does anyone have any theories for WHY the Monaco track is so fast (beyond the Nick Willis "it's downhill all the way round" line)?

I would have thought that if it had some perfect degree of springiness, people building WC stadia would have copied it.

Or is there just a meeting for each generation (Rieti, Bislett, Zurich etc) that just "gets it right" with prize money, logistics, pacing, making athletes feel great?

Monaco has a short track.

I (mostly) agree with this take. But the problem for fans was always: WE never learned what Mo Farah could have run. It wouldn’t surprise me if Salazar knew, but coaches and athletes always exaggerate these things anyway.

I don’t think Farah could have run 12:37. But maybe he could have run 12:40. Or at least 12:45. Certainly faster than the 12:53 he did run. But for TEN YEARS the best guys in the world didn’t really try to hit their absolute peak. So now that Cheptegei is finally trying, it feels so sudden. It feels like reading the last page of a book without the rest of it.

eurodonkey wrote:

Does anyone have any theories for WHY the Monaco track is so fast (beyond the Nick Willis "it's downhill all the way round" line)?

I would have thought that if it had some perfect degree of springiness, people building WC stadia would have copied it.

Or is there just a meeting for each generation (Rieti, Bislett, Zurich etc) that just "gets it right" with prize money, logistics, pacing, making athletes feel great?

I seem to remember Nick Willis reporting that at the Monaco meet athletes are able to stay warmed up and loose until just before the start, as opposed to having to report early and stand around in a corral for excessively long. That makes as much sense as any single reason. I also think that after a few lightning-fast editions of the Monaco 1500 athletes have come to expect it to be fast and have targeted it as a PR opportunity, so it’s become sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Aren't WRs sufficiently admired and compensated to incentive attempts?

POOPOSH wrote:

Aren't WRs sufficiently admired and compensated to incentive attempts?

*Incentivize bro

Bump!

Reading comprehension is always pretty bad on LR.

He didn’t say Mo could’ve beaten the record. He said he could have run faster in set up races during the time that he dominated. The peak example time he gave was a 12:40 in 2012.

bropl wrote:

` wrote:

More unique, yes. But (perhaps) not as exciting.

When an ultrarunning record goes down, Letsrun collectively yawns and says "That's because there's no competition." The same thing to a much-smaller degree is (arguably) happening here. The road 200-mile record going down would be unique (I assume; I haven't looked into it), but we're not gonna get that excited about it because it isn't a record people have been trying to break every year for the last two decades.

I don’t subscribe to your guys’ notion that no one has attempted it. No real threats is not the same as no attempts.

Bropl, it doesn't really matter what you subscribe to or not -- name one time a true attempt, i.e. on pace at 3k or more, in the last 10 years? Sure, you or I can say we attempted it but in the end only ran 16:34. What are you getting at?

Automorphic -- I read the thread title and was about to bash your premise, but I think it's actually a decent point. Now, if we are discussing whether those times before Farah should be believable, then we are in different territory.