Lydiard Time Trials

no point of doing a non all out TT.

Better do a workout if you dot want to go all out.

Or a real all out TT.

Impala31 wrote:

no point of doing a non all out TT.

Better do a workout if you dot want to go all out.

Or a real all out TT.

Yeah, a time trial is to test your fitness. Why would you run at anything below a 100%. If you go 90% you might not know if that was your 100%

highschoolrunner22 wrote:

Impala31 wrote:

no point of doing a non all out TT.

Better do a workout if you dot want to go all out.

Or a real all out TT.

Yeah, a time trial is to test your fitness. Why would you run at anything below a 100%. If you go 90% you might not know if that was your 100%

Idk, ask lydiard

maybe it's like race effort but without kicking? Run like you want a slight negative split, but don't go all out for it in the end.

tryingtobefast420 wrote:

Lydiard explains that time trials should be at 7/8 effort but I am struggling to gauge how fast that would be in comparison to all out. For example, how fast should a 3000m Lydiard style TT be ran if the runner is capable of a 9:00 when running all out?

Lydiard "efforts" were always a problem because it is not a mathematical relation of something easily measured. It is supposed to be a description of how hard you should try, rather than a race pace that might be easier, or harder, than is intended.

The other problem here is that you might not get a good response to your question because most of the Lydiard gurus were constantly harassed and chased away from this site, because, for no better reason than, Lydiard training is old. If you want a true Lydiard answer, unless some of the gurus come back, I would ignore everyone (including me if you wish) except HRE.

Having said that ...

What is important with effort based training is effort, not pace. If these time trials are in the "consolidation" phase, what should happen is that each week, the same 7/8th effort gets faster. The runner capable of 9:00 one week, is capable of 8:55 the next, then 8:50, and so on. If you fix a predetermined pace, it may be right at first, but then you may end up running the next weeks too slow. Or it may be too aggressive at first, and this will lead to a sub-optimal training, or early burn-out.

The "effort based" guidance is going for a feeling you should know (or find out) and feel is appropriate for what you are trying to achieve at that moment, rather than a prescribed pace.

But this "you know how it feels once you know how it feels" only works when you have a coach who is constantly guiding you, and can tell when you are not doing what he wants.

If you want pace guidance, I've always thought about efforts this way: easy/long pace is 0 effort (not trying). Something in between easy pace and race pace is half trying. 3/4th effort is harder still. 7/8th effort is harder than that, but still not quite all out race effort.

If you want to do it mathematically, then "not trying" might be 5 min/km and racing is 3 min/km. 7/8th effort works out to be 3:15 min/km, or 9:45.

Since time trials are Lydiard's effort to be "race specific" training, you might chose a more modern definition of 95% of speed, which works out to be a bit faster, ~9:30.

But "effort" is supposed to be ballpark "run like how you know 7/8th is supposed to feel", rather than obsessing about hitting a narrow pace range which is supposed to get better as you respond to specific training.

With a Lydiard approach, you are supposed to learn/know what each training session is supposed to achieve, and how it is supposed to feel. That is because an important part of the training is that when it is wrong for you, it doesn't feel right, and you adapt.

Note that for other distances, like 10K, or 10 miles, the paces related to efforts are relative to race pace for that longer distance.

Ah, Grasshopper....

If you are fully in tune or in touch with exactly how you feel while running various efforts, you run a time trial close to race effort, without straining. You will know where you are at.

Under distance, over distance, and at the distance. But it is important to do them at the right time of your schedule.

If you are building your aerobic base and disrupt the process by racing, you can cannibalize the conditioning that you are building. It's like planting a seed, it grows into a sapling, but you are impatient, so you dig it up to see if the roots are taking, damaging the tree in the process.

This pandemic is the perfect opportunity to just go out and run as much easy, medium, steady, and strong miles as makes sense for your age, ability, and fitness.

It's about peaking on the day.

NOW, if you are the type to be impatient and need to race all the time, then during the Lydiard aerobic phase (8-24 weeks depending), you can run out-and-backs. A wonderful effort:

Find a route that is gently rolling that you can run 15 out and a wee negative split back with the exact same effort 100% of the time, every single time. Do this once per week, at your best effort without straining. Finish thinking, "I could have run faster if I had to, but I am glad I didn't." So, quite strong.

Over time you will see the turnaround point on the route is farther and farther out. Once you stop improving, then you have diminishing returns and it is time to move onto the next phase of training. This weekly out-and-back is a little like TT - you can get a sense of your fitness without training too-too hard.

If you do it with some friends, everyone can be at different fitness levels, it doesn't matter, everyone should finish close together, as you turn around at the same time on the clock. You are just covering different distances. Warm-up and warm-down together.

Important: Sure, take the watch, but don't look at it to check pace ever, you are going by feel. It should be by feel 100% of the time, it should be at the same EFFORT 100% of the time. Set the watch to beep at 15', so you don't look at it.

If you have to speed up or slow down at any point, you are not going at that magic effort.

I personally have used the 30' out and back with even splits, slight positive split because it is down out and up back (marginally). I think an even split is like a slight negative split on this route. If it is absolutely equal out and back, then a slight negative split is the goal.

The 30' out and back is low Lactate Threshold and good Anaerobic Threshold stimulus, then once I see no further improvements, I move to 15' out and back....(or people I have coached do)......

Now for the actual TTs, you should have built your aerobic base first, done some sort of hill phase, or transition to anaerobic training (intervals), then consolidation phase where you do a few time trials. The whole cycle can take 18-52 weeks depending on age, fitness, distance racing etc etc....

high school xc coach wrote:

maybe it's like race effort but without kicking? Run like you want a slight negative split, but don't go all out for it in the end.

That's what he told me to do when I ran time trials. Another option is running at your (roughly) full effort but for part of your desired distance. Before Richard Tayler's 10,000 (27:46) at the '74 Commonwealth Games he did a trial at 5,000 in 13:40 something. He also would have marathon runners doing 30 km or 20 mile time trials at their hoped for race paces.

tryingtobefast420 wrote:

Lydiard explains that time trials should be at 7/8 effort but I am struggling to gauge how fast that would be in comparison to all out. For example, how fast should a 3000m Lydiard style TT be ran if the runner is capable of a 9:00 when running all out?

Basically a tempo run or steady state... hard but controlled and NOT racing. Don’t race the workout.

Agree with HRE. I’ve done some work trying to correlate the effort approach with a more pace-driven approach. A 2 mile TT at 5K pace is too hard. I prefer 2400m at 5K pace to get the adaptation you’re seeking which at the end of a Lydiard cycle is just trying to be more specific to the demands of your race. You’ve already don’t the intervals but now you have to practice running fast without breaks in between. Lydiard loves to talk about how Halberg beat everyone in the 5000 at Rome because everyone else was used to having breaks.

good post.

this winter, and because of the covid situation, i'm trying weekly time trials. i run distances that are constantly uphill, sometimes gently (so that you are fast), sometimes quite steep (there i consciously run small steps and with a high step frequency). duration: 2/3 of the planned race duration.

advantages of these time trials:

- knock down the inner sissy

- wonderfully develops the body feeling for the serious races

- i'm making good progress

- uphill: no high impact, you can regenerate better and faster.

if you give 100% from the beginning to the end of the most important race of the year, in every single second, i.e. 8/8 according to lydiard, then i would rate these time trials with approx. 7.5/8. it's really hard, but not every single second all out. afterwards a few quick strides.

this year i will only include intervals (400m or so) 4-5 weeks prior the race day.