Moen breaks Euro Record in 1 hour run...legal?

In the first statement, WA clearly informed that the application of the new rules had to start from 1st December, for giving time to the athletes to have facilities according to the rules, and to adapt to the new shoes.

The competition of Kristiansand was not part of the International Calendar, but of the National Calendar of Norway only. This means that the Working Group of WA was not aware of that competition.

Six days later, WA updated the statement, changing the date of application from 1st December to “Immediate effect”. Sondre was informed on 4th August (3 days before the race) that could not use the shoes he normal uses both in training and in competition, because the maximum thickness allowed on track is 25mm.

It’s obvious that an athlete, informed 3 days before the race that can’t use his facilities and has to change, faces two problems : the first technical (adaptation to different shoes), and the second, most important : WHERE AND HOW TO FIND SHOES RESPECTING THE RULE IN 2 DAYS TIME.

Sondre’s manager (the Italian Chiara Davini) immediately activated, sending letters to WA raising the issue in order to have some clarification, but WA never replied. At the same time, she asked NIKE to send a type of shoes according the rules, but the shoes could arrive in Oslo on Monday 10th August only, while the race was on Friday 7th. This means there was no way to have material comformable with the rules, on time.

It’s absolutely unfair and illegal to change every kind of rule with “immediate effect”, 6 DAYS AFTER COMMUNICATING THE PERIOD HAD TO START FROM DECEMBER.

This is against the rights of every athlete, and honestly I don’t understand the reason to rush, when all the performances don’t have validity for the Olympic Limits : since WA changed the period of validity from 1st December to 1st September, the logic suggests that athletes of ALL THE EVENTS had to start to use comformable material after that date.

Also at the bottom of the updated statement of 3rd August, there was an appendage explaining the possibility to ask for Exemption from the rule, for medical reasons, regarding the shoes for track.

Therefore, since Sondre can’t use spikes after having a surgery some year ago in one foot (he had to stop training for 1 and half year), and because with spikes always has tendon problems, the Doctor of Norwegian Federation sent WA a detailed explanation of the physical situation of Sondre, but after in this case there was not any answer from WA.

At the end of these events, since was for Sondre an important test looking at London Marathon, I told him to run with the same shoes he had to use in London, because there was not alternative.

But now I want to go to the technological part of the rule.

It’s absolutely wrong to divide shoes in shoes for track and shoes for road races. In a competition on track lasting one hour, nobody uses spikes : not Haile Gebrselassie for his WR, not Barrios before him, not Moses Mosop fro the records of 25000m and 30000m in Eugene, not Sondre himself for his 25000m in Oslo.

This means that the difference for shoes is in the DISTANCE, not in the SURFACE.

People must quit the idea that shoes with higher thickness can produce advantages in SPEED.

Last year, everybody could be free to chose the shoes, better for every athlete, during WCh in Doha. In the race of 10000m, 21 athletes were at the start : 20 using spikes, and only one (Sondre) with Vaporfly without spikes.

This means that, if REALLY there is some advantage to use on track the shoes for Marathon, last year there were 20 idiots and only one (Sondre) smart ?

If NOBODY runs 10000m without spikes, is because with spikes (and not WITHOUT) it’s possible to have some advantage, and, if Sondre doesn’t use, IT’S BECAUSE HE CAN’T FOR MEDICAL REASONS.

The real advantage with the Racing Shoes with the carbon plate is that the level of the impact on hard surfaces (like tarmac or concrete) is reduced, and this fact “saves” the legs of runners, giving them the possibility to be more fresh (under muscular point of view) during the last 10 km of a Marathon.

One hour on track is the same competition of HM, on different surface, and frankly I don’t understand the need of the division between track and road for the thickness of shoes.

Higher thickness of shoes doesn’t make athletes faster, but SLOWER. What do you think could be the time of Rudisha in London Olympics if using Vaporfly ? Maybe 1’46” ?

The thickness itself doesn’t give any advantage, but the reason is that INSIDE the sole there is the possibility to put the carbon plate with a drop, and the plate is the reason of the advantage (I repeat, not in SPEED, but in the LONG ENDURANCE, because athletes are less tired after 30 km).<

Therefore, the best solution (logical and technical) for the rule is to maintain the division between Spikes (following the rule) and Racing Shoes, but without any prohibition to run on track wearing Racing Shoes, because, in any case, NEVER there is some advantage in the normal distances, and in the longest distances the specifity is not the Track, but the distance.

The rule detailing that the carbon plate must be parallel to the ground, without any drop, is already enough for cancelling any possibility of advantage if using racing shoes on track, till 30 km of distance.

Regarding the Working Group for the rules of shoes, the composition is the following :

Composition of Working Group: -

1 representative from World Federation of the Sporting Goods Industry (‘WFSGI’) (Co-chair) (Robbert de Kock) –

1 representative from World Athletics Council (Co-chair) (Sylvia Barlag) –

6 representatives from the manufacturers (adidas, Spencer Nel; Asics, Ryan Montgomery; Brooks, Carson Caprara Sr; New Balance, Tom Carleo; Nike, Chris Cook; Puma, Johan Adamsson) –

1 representative from the Athlete Commission (Inaki Gomez) –

1 lead representative from each of the three work streams (Anna Riccardi, Prof. Toni Arndt, Brian Roe) - World Athletics CEO (Convenor/Ex-officio attendee)

In this composition, it’s evident the lack of some coach, who can help with analysis of what happens on the ground (not in some lab…) the other members, in order to create a strict rule, according to the reality, and not with any kind of propaganda.

Renato Canova wrote:

6. The maximum height of athletics shoes have been amended as set out in the table below:

Cross country 25mm

That seems absurd. You couldn't for example wear Hoka Speedgoats in a XC race.

Moen disqualified and record not ratified.

https://www.dagbladet.no/studio/sportsstudio/307?post=39607

Moens record breaks:

Sondre Nordstad Moen's European record for hourly running, which he set on Friday, is not approved by the International Athletics Federation (WA).

- I wildly regret that I ran, says Sondre Nordstad Moen to Fædrelandsvennen.

On Friday night, he ran 21,131 meters in one hour at Kristiansand Stadium. It was 187 meters longer than the Dutch Jos Hermes race in 1976.

- The record will not be approved. The shoes he used are not in accordance with the rules, and the runners were informed about this in advance, says Yannis Nikolau in the media department in WA.

Moen ran with the controversial shoe Nike Vaporfly. The brand is described by several as a technology doping due to its special sole.

The Norwegian Athletics Association, headed by sports director Erlend Slokvik, applied for a medical exemption, a so-called TUE, for Moen to make sure he could use the shoes.

- We sent in this TUE three days before the race in Kristiansand, but we did not receive an answer until Friday, and we have still not received a final answer. The answer we got from World Athletics was that those who managed this were in Japan and not available to us, Slokvik says to TV 2.

The application for the medical exemption was approved and submitted by the national team doctor Ove Talsnes.

- You can not change shoes three days before a race. A skier does not change pole length so short before a competition. And a biathlete does not change rifles in such a short time, says Slokvik.

(© NTB)

Renato Canova wrote:

Last year, everybody could be free to chose the shoes, better for every athlete, during WCh in Doha. In the race of 10000m, 21 athletes were at the start : 20 using spikes, and only one (Sondre) with Vaporfly without spikes.

This means that, if REALLY there is some advantage to use on track the shoes for Marathon, last year there were 20 idiots and only one (Sondre) smart ?

Yes, 20 idiots, and Sondre (and you) smart.

BYU wore Vaporflies to good effect in the NCAA 10,000. Four of their six guys in the final wore them. Probably advised by Jared Ward to do so, since he was studying shoes in the lab.

is that worth a 27:13 10k?

+1

And applying for a TUE for vaporflys is ridiculous. Could easily wear Metaracers or similar 25mm non spike shoe.

The only thing ridiculous is your comment. Sondre is not an amateur, has contract with one Company and can't decide to use shoes of another Company.

And, in any case, do you think possible running more than 21 km in one hour with a pair of shoes never had the possibility to use previously ? Every type of shoes requires a period of adaptation because very small differences change the running technique, like top bikers who changing the position of the saddle of two millimeters improve their performance of one minute in 50 km.

Ridiculous is to continue to think of top athletics starting from your experience as runners in your school or as amateurs. Talent is different, training is different, goals are different, duties are different, rights are different. We call this "professionalism".

Which company is his shoe sponsor? If Nike, for his next long track race there is the new 25mm Hyperfly.

Renato obfuscating once again. The only issue was the shoes were illegal being over 25mm stack height. Its a super clear and dry rule. This rule was announced well beforehand, ignorance is no excuse. There are running stores in Kristiansand which sell spikes, streak lts, and other shoes that would be legal. I just googled to check. I guess thats too hard for Renato. Moen was ignorant of the widely published rules or deliberately tried to cheat or else he'd have had competition legal shoes in under an hour.

Kvothe, you write a lot of wrong things.

Apart the discussion about the reason of the rule, that, for a competition on track of one hour is totally absurd, since are not track athletes running one hour or longer distances on track, but road runners who are ALL with validated shoes (so the rule doesn't give advantage to anybody when there is the race, since ALL the athletes can use their racing shoes), the real problem was the communication.

The first communication from WA was sent to the managers of the athletes on 28th July. In this communication, was written that, in case of athletes wearing shoes not comformable with the rules, athletes had time till 1st December for find shoes accordin the rule, because they had to have time for adaptation at the new shoes.

Six days later (3rd August, with communication to the managers and the Federations on 4th) the statement was updated, specifying that the validity was "with immediate effect".

The race was 3 days later. Sondre is not an amateur : he is under contract with a Company, and had to use shoes of that company. Not only : if you look for a top performance, can't use a new pair of shoes without any adaptation. And, last but not least, there was no time enough for receiving from the Company a shoe according the new rules, on time for the competition.

This is exactly what happened, and the only one obfuscating are you.

Do you find legal and logic a rule, for example, from a Government, deciding that, WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT, all the cars have to use some specific type of tyres, without previous communication, and where you stay you don't have the possibility to buy them ?

In any case, this rule, that has many good points, is very stupid regarding the distances on track superior 10 km, since nobody runs one hour and more than 20 km on track using spikes, if don't want to have injuries in their Achille's tendon. Gebrselassie used racing shoes when ran the record, Mosop used racing shoes during his record of 25 and 30 km in Eugene, Sondre used already the same shoes during the European Record of 25 km in Oslo on 10th of June, and NEVER we had track runners trying those distances, but only road runners.

Can you explain why ALL the athletes who ran HM and Marathon with validated shoes (and HM is an official WR) can't use the same shoes in competitions on track of the same duration, because who runs those distances on track are the same athletes running the same distances on road ?

When something is absurd, it's absurd, and this rule was clearly made by somebody NOT KNOWING what the athletes do on track and their feeling.

kartelite wrote:

PCG Girl wrote:

Josh or Brandon?

Josh was a D3 legend. Brandon was a letsrun legend. I bet 95% of the people on this thread are new here and have no idea what your username means.

http://www.falteisek.com/pictures/index.php?image=3%20F%208%2015%2005%20120.JPG&list=My%20Pictures/Family/Felicia&page=1

Ahhh the good ole days with Gun/Pirate/Cat Girl and Brandon Moen oddly posing in wrestling uniforms and trying to break the Treadmill Marathon record but failing miserably.

Sadly he was charged with meth possession later on.

Its a track race, not a road race. A marathon on the track is a track race. A 24 hour race on a track is a track race. Etc. I've worn streak lts for marathons, so I know that with training in the shoes, a one hour race in the streak lt or another light flat can be done. In fact some Japanese runners race marathons in flats with less than 20mm stack height. The problem was athletes hoping to gain a competitive advantage, not a lack of communication.

Why can't athletes who ran fast halves and marathons on the road wear the same shoes on the track? Well, personally I feel that shoes that go against the spirt of the sport, providing a mechanical advantage, like the vaporfly should be banned on the road as well. I'd be happy with a 25mm stack height limit there too. The rules are not equally applied because of the stake nike and some other shoe manufacturers have in the game. They've put big money into their products and big money into the sport, so naturally instead of doing what is fair - that is inhibiting the mechanical aid provided by carbon spring shoes, officials have looked the other way because these companies are funding the sport. In a way, competitive road racing is just a marketing tool for nike, adidas, etc.

Another giver of +1 wrote:

Which company is his shoe sponsor? If Nike, for his next long track race there is the new 25mm Hyperfly.

Illegal as much as the vaporfly here...it is still considered a prototype with no public release. Fortunately, the Danish champion saw this coming.

N o, Kvothe. The common denominator in running is the distance, not the surface. In the past, my athlete Moses Mosop bettered the WR of 25000 and 30000m in Eugene (2011) using the same shoes he used in Boston 40 days before for running 2:03:06, and those shoes (NIKE) had a thickness of 20 mm, without any carbon plate, and for me were the best shoes ever for a marathon, for athletes with the biomechanics of Moses.

You speak about the carbon plate in the racing shoes : but also approved shoes with spikes have, today, a plate of Kevlar, so I don't see which advantage there is sunning with shoes 40 mm thick or 20 mm thick.

About speed, more the shoe is thin, more is fast, because the reactivity of feet can work only if there is stiffness under the plant, and with a shoe with 40mm thickness there is a longer time of contact on the ground before the plate can react. This produces a decrease of stide's frequency, and the combined action of less frequency and longer stride creates advantages only speaking about slow speeds.

The real advantage of carbon plate shoes is that the system reduces the effect of the impact on the ground, preserving the elasticity of the athlete and reducing the possibility of hemolysis, affecting the most part of athletes after 1 and half hour of competition.

The problem of Sondre is in the bursa of the left tendon, and that's the reason because he needs to wear shoes with high thickness, or shoes in any case more soft and with a drop between the rear and the front part of the sole.

Anyway, the fact that the best athletes ran on track using spikes the distances of 5000 and 10000m, also when there wasn't any prohibition to use racing shoes on track, clearly shows that on track spikes are better than racing shoes, till the Olympic distances.

What happens in longer distances is in the field of the specialists of HM and Marathon, and there is no reason they can't use on track the same approved shoes they use on road, considering the fact that it's the same situation for everybody (so, nobody takes advantage against other competitors).

Ouray chalet wrote:

Another giver of +1 wrote:

Which company is his shoe sponsor? If Nike, for his next long track race there is the new 25mm Hyperfly.

Illegal as much as the vaporfly here...it is still considered a prototype with no public release. Fortunately, the Danish champion saw this coming.

The Hyperfly from Nike is sure to be available to the public soon as the 25mm rule has created a demand for such shoes. It looks to have the same midsole as the Pegasus Turbo but with a lighter upper

Another giver of +1 wrote:

Ouray chalet wrote:

Illegal as much as the vaporfly here...it is still considered a prototype with no public release. Fortunately, the Danish champion saw this coming.

The Hyperfly from Nike is sure to be available to the public soon as the 25mm rule has created a demand for such shoes. It looks to have the same midsole as the Pegasus Turbo but with a lighter upper

Feb 21 at best. Sept 21 at worst.

The latest shoe assist questions have cast a cloud on the sport of track. Is there a benefit or not? Should it be allowed if there is a shoe assist? Difficult questions.

I want people thinking a little before going with rules that are a nonsense.

Till 28 July, all the athletes were free to use on track every kind of shoes. However, NOBODY ran 5000 and 10000m in racing shoes, and specifically Vaporfly, with the only ecception of some Marathon runner.

Since all the top athletes running on track have experience on the road with racing shoes (for example, Kejelcha ran two HM using Vaporfly and Cheptegei bettered the WR of 15 km using Vaporfly), somebody cvan explain WHY these athletes preferred running on track with spikes ?

Or the most part of top athletes are idiots, or THERE IS NOT ADVANTAGE AT THE SPEED OF THE COMPETITION ON TRACK.

I repeat again : compared with old models of racing shoes WITHOUT the carbon plate, Vaporfly can give a good advantage (in any case depending on the biomechanic of the athletes, so not the same for everybody) in competitions lasting longer than 1 h 30'. The main result is to reduce the effect of the impact on the ground, avoiding the phenomen of hemolysis, when with other shoes the athletes already have the legs very tired, and lose elasticity and reactivity.

IN ALL THE OTHER DISTANCES (Including HM) there is not a real advantage, because with Vaporfly or similar shoes the time of contact on the ground is longer, and this reduces the average speed of the athletes when running faster than 2'50" / 2'45" per km.

The limitation was studied by a group NOT HAVING ANY PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE WITH TOP ATHLETES, and not knowing what we can clearly see in training.

The main mistake was to consider the type of shoes in function of the surface, and not of the distance.