simply appalling sprint finish at tour de poland - should criminal charges be filed?

While sprinting, they are often looking at the ground for aerodynamics, and they definitely see someone coming left or right.

Jakobsen want to pass him on the right, and Groenewegen goes from the middle to the right, and when Jakobsen is about to overtake him, Groenewegen “closes the door” and pushes him.

95% of professional road cycling amateurs will agree that it is a deliberate manouvre.

when he starts moving to the right, jakobsen is still almost completely behind him, perhaps jakobsen's front wheel is not quite level with groenegen's back wheel. i think it's at least debatable that he cannot see him without turning his head. you could make a case for him knowing he was there when he is already half way across the road, after jakobsen's front wheel is coming level with his shoulder, but this is all happening in milliseconds and he is sprinting flat out, it's impossible imo to say the whole manoeuvre is deliberate.

also if you watch the video a little further back, about 200m to the line, he is already veering all over the road just because of the amount of power he is pushing through the pedals. it lends credence to the theory that it was just bad riding.

Why is a dangerous barrier right up on the course? Why not have it a few back to separate spectators from riders? You can have a line on the road to mark the edge of the course. Like a do not cross this line or you’re DQed.

Guys I've watched this video over and over with it slowed down, there's no way the guy in the yellow jersey could see the guy behind him. He was clearly just trying to finish as fast as he could, he was so exhausted there's no way he'd notice he was drifting to the right. If anything, blame the course designers for such a narrow finish.

I think the guy who crashed is “at fault”. Not in the fact that he acted deliberately, but because he took the chance to blast a gap which was clearly being closed off, but didn’t make it and paid the price.

The guy in yellow was cycling towards the fence to close the guy in white’s room to pass. The guy in white tried to squeeze through the gap, but didn’t fit.

Tbh good rational riding by the guy in yellow. The guy in white was the reckless one

Free_the_thigh wrote:

The guy in yellow was cycling towards the fence to close the guy in white’s room to pass.

you can't do that in cycling though, it's not allowed.

Salvatore Stitchmo wrote:

This is where Groenewegen should be done for the season - 12 month ban at a minimum.

Agree wrote:

If it's an accident or incidental contact then no action but if it's intentional - one year ban. If there is a second incident then lifetime ban.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Fcuk Groenewegen. Throw him out for 4 years

You three are insane. Is your goal to get revenge or to prevent bad things from happening in the future?

If your goal is to prevent bad things from happening in the future, then you have to consistently punish the behavior regardless of the outcome--regardless of whether it causes a horrific crash or any crash at all. As long as people keep going with the "no blood no foul" mindset, then the racers have no choice but to take risks if they want to be competitive.

If your goal is just to take revenge after something bad happens, then by all means, continue basing the severity of the punishment on the severity of the outcome.

I'm not opposed to a strict punishment for Groenewegen, but the year long and longer bans you are calling for would be insane. If you want to actually make a difference then you have to impose the same punishment on every occurrence regardless of whether it causes a crash. A consistently-applied 1-week ban would accomplish much, much more than a lifetime ban for Groenewegen. A super harsh punishment for the one guy who was unlucky will do nothing at all for the future, but if you start consistently punishing everyone who does this even when they don't cause a crash, then you will see racers' behavior change very quickly.

I'm insane? Where in my post/statement do I say this should be an isolated penalty for this incident alone? I guess I'm missing that part. Where do I say - this is a 12 month offense, but only for Groenewegen because he's a d$ck? How could you possibly know what my stance is on punishment for dangerous and potentially life threatening actions in the sport of cylcing.

Yep the answer is you don't. You are not insane - you are just a clown. Stop wasting my time.

Insanity isn't part of the equation when a willful deliberate act by a rider can cause death or irreparable injury to a fellow racer. You have to eliminate the bad actors who recklessly endanger others in the race. Not insane. Just prudent. Not saying that is the case here. In cases where there is a deliberate reckless act though there needs to be at least a 1 year suspension. The second act should be enough to ban the rider from the sport.

Man, I do not understand Let's Run anymore.

Why are we talking about biking?

This one shows an overhead angle and the dude in yellow clearly hipchecks him as FJ tried to pass. Other angles it doesn't look like the yellow dude does anything wrong but the overhead tells the story. Lifeban for that DB.

Salvatore Stitchimo wrote:

I'm insane? Where in my post/statement do I say this should be an isolated penalty for this incident alone? I guess I'm missing that part. Where do I say - this is a 12 month offense, but only for Groenewegen because he's a d$ck? How could you possibly know what my stance is on punishment for dangerous and potentially life threatening actions in the sport of cylcing.

So you're advocating a 1-year ban for anyone who does this regardless of outcome? That would be a very unusual position that I've not seen anyone advocate for. I think maybe you aren't very familiar with cycling and just how common this is. If you retroactively gave a year long ban to everyone who's done this over the past year but managed to get away with it because there wasn't a crash, then there would be no sprinters left unbanned in the peloton.

If that really is your position, then I'll give you credit for being consistent at least. But it's still insane because it's completely unnecessary and it raises the stakes way higher than they need to be. If the ban is 1-year, then the stakes are so high that it becomes extremely, extremely, extremely important that every single decision is perfect with no mistakes. With such a severe punishment it would be extremely critical that no one be punished who shouldn't be, and there would be a massive, massive fight over any kind of borderline case. There would probably be court cases and expensive legal battles over every single incident.

It's insane to advocate for such a high-stakes scenario when it isn't even necessary. Just consistently DQ everyone who does this, and then it doesn't matter if you mistakenly DQ an innocent person every now and then. The result is that riders will learn that there's no point in continuing to do this if they are sure to be DQed. You don't need a 1-year ban to discourage this behavior. You just need a consistently applied DQ regardless of outcome and riders will learn they have nothing to gain from it. But as long as people continue the "no blood no foul" attitude, then riders have a lot to gain if they can manage to get away with it without causing a crash.

Not so insane wrote:

Insanity isn't part of the equation when a willful deliberate act by a rider can cause death or irreparable injury to a fellow racer. You have to eliminate the bad actors who recklessly endanger others in the race. Not insane. Just prudent. Not saying that is the case here. In cases where there is a deliberate reckless act though there needs to be at least a 1 year suspension. The second act should be enough to ban the rider from the sport.

I think you're not very familiar with cycling. This is a very commonplace thing. The only thing unusual about this situation was the severity of the outcome. According to your standard, every single sprinter in the peloton is a bad actor who needs to be eliminated from the sport.

People respond to incentives. You can call it bad or good or whatever, but that is the simple truth--people respond to incentives. You don't become a world-class competitor in any kind of competition without availing yourself of every possible advantage you can get. Right now, sprinters have a huge incentive to block, because as long as there isn't a crash they get away with it. And that's very common. Sprinters very commonly do this, and they very commonly get away with it. As long as that remains the case, there is an incentive for them to continue to do it.

Handing out a big penalty only in cases where a crash results accomplishes almost nothing, because riders will still take that risk knowing that the odds are good that they will get away with it and benefit from it. The only thing that will effect a positive change is to consistently penalize riders such that they know they have nothing to gain from it.

It was absolutely intentional, and totally blameworthy.

Every sprinter at that level knows what is acceptable and what is not. This was not, it was a joke. Yes everyone who fouls so flagrantly should be tossed for 4 years because of the potential danger.

gbnfhmn wrote:

when he starts moving to the right, jakobsen is still almost completely behind him, perhaps jakobsen's front wheel is not quite level with groenegen's back wheel. i think it's at least debatable that he cannot see him without turning his head. you could make a case for him knowing he was there when he is already half way across the road, after jakobsen's front wheel is coming level with his shoulder, but this is all happening in milliseconds and he is sprinting flat out, it's impossible imo to say the whole manoeuvre is deliberate.

also if you watch the video a little further back, about 200m to the line, he is already veering all over the road just because of the amount of power he is pushing through the pedals. it lends credence to the theory that it was just bad riding.

I don't think you have ever ridden a bicycle, definitely not in a sprint finish. You have no idea of the visual that the rider in front has.

BangDingOw wrote:

https://youtu.be/6DqkC6jLvA4

This one shows an overhead angle and the dude in yellow clearly hipchecks him as FJ tried to pass.

he just doesn't though. he's balancing himself on the bike whilst sprinting flat out. moving your hips (and whole body) from side to side when sprinting is completely normal, just look at the preceding 20 seconds.

I am Sam wrote:

I don't think you have ever ridden a bicycle, definitely not in a sprint finish. You have no idea of the visual that the rider in front has.

I don't get around on anything but a bicycle. Granted it is a mountain bike, not a road bike, and I am not sprinting against anybody else, but I am riding it fast in busy traffic, so I have to have good awareness of what is around me in terms of other vehicles. Also done a complete of triathlons on a road bike.

Are you saying you have first-hand experience in sprint finishes at a high level on a road bike, at the same pace these guys are riding? I highly doubt it.

gbnfhmn wrote:

I am Sam wrote:

I don't think you have ever ridden a bicycle, definitely not in a sprint finish. You have no idea of the visual that the rider in front has.

I don't get around on anything but a bicycle. Granted it is a mountain bike, not a road bike, and I am not sprinting against anybody else, but I am riding it fast in busy traffic, so I have to have good awareness of what is around me in terms of other vehicles. Also done a complete of triathlons on a road bike.

Are you saying you have first-hand experience in sprint finishes at a high level on a road bike, at the same pace these guys are riding? I highly doubt it.

Most amateur riders that race do.

Maybe not quite at this speed, but it's not that different sprinting at 65kph vs 80kph here. Everything else is the same.

The way you're looking down usually does allow you to see. Sprinters also just have an incredible awareness of who is around them.

Worth noting, there is a rule in cycling that says you cannot deviate from your line while sprinting. Regardless of awareness, Groneowegen did blatantly vear from his line starting middle left and ending at the barrier.

It might make sense for cycling to be done in this mass peloton stuff, if it actually added to the athleticism factor instead of detracting from it. Put a cyclist on a bike and see how fast he goes, that's athleticism. See how well they draft and maneuver and teamwork for 5 hours, that's not. They sign up to get their bodies mangled for that?