How many World Records are held at Monaco? I am not seeing any.
Here is Quercetani biography for extreme bias -
https://www.worldathletics.org/news/iaaf-news/roberto-quercetani-obituary
How many World Records are held at Monaco? I am not seeing any.
Here is Quercetani biography for extreme bias -
https://www.worldathletics.org/news/iaaf-news/roberto-quercetani-obituary
By the way, Brazier is on pace to have quite financial windfall in 2020. Right now he is #1 in the world over 800m (1:43.85) and #3 in the world over 1500m (3:35.85). If he remains in the Top 5 in both events, his contract performance clause triggers a $150k pay-out and of course that is on top of the $15k he could earn from Nike if he wins Monaco and any other big meet this year. An American record is six figures.
The Bowermen Men and Women just enjoyed big payouts for their World and American Records. I believe the Women get $25k for the record (each) and the Men get $15k since they are rarely run events.
Deanouk wrote:
Impala31 wrote:
It true he should be near peak shape. However you usually need several races when in top shape to make the best time possible. Especially for the 800m where pacing and race rythm is very important.
Yes indeed. That was the other point I thoughy of and then forgot. Totally agree. Thanks.
He NEEDS long reps, 300-500 m at 50 flat pace. NEEDS it!
Sapel wrote:
By the way, Brazier is on pace to have quite financial windfall in 2020. Right now he is #1 in the world over 800m (1:43.85) and #3 in the world over 1500m (3:35.85). If he remains in the Top 5 in both events, his contract performance clause triggers a $150k pay-out and of course that is on top of the $15k he could earn from Nike if he wins Monaco and any other big meet this year. An American record is six figures.
The Bowermen Men and Women just enjoyed big payouts for their World and American Records. I believe the Women get $25k for the record (each) and the Men get $15k since they are rarely run events.
He’ll have to race both distances again, faster, to provide some security there
Sapel wrote:
Here is Quercetani biography for extreme bias -
https://www.worldathletics.org/news/iaaf-news/roberto-quercetani-obituary
Thanks, but nothing new.
The point Deano was making, is that Quercetani in Florence 1981 was the "official" IAAF statistician. I just want confirmation for this. But it's probably just one of those made up "facts" from Deano to support his point of view.
Sapel wrote:
By the way, Brazier is on pace to have quite financial windfall in 2020. Right now he is #1 in the world over 800m (1:43.85) and #3 in the world over 1500m (3:35.85). If he remains in the Top 5 in both events, his contract performance clause triggers a $150k pay-out and of course that is on top of the $15k he could earn from Nike if he wins Monaco and any other big meet this year. An American record is six figures.
The Bowermen Men and Women just enjoyed big payouts for their World and American Records. I believe the Women get $25k for the record (each) and the Men get $15k since they are rarely run events.
He should pay Tim $20k to slow it down to a crawl in Monaco.
Coevett wrote:
Sapel wrote:
By the way, Brazier is on pace to have quite financial windfall in 2020. Right now he is #1 in the world over 800m (1:43.85) and #3 in the world over 1500m (3:35.85). If he remains in the Top 5 in both events, his contract performance clause triggers a $150k pay-out and of course that is on top of the $15k he could earn from Nike if he wins Monaco and any other big meet this year. An American record is six figures.
The Bowermen Men and Women just enjoyed big payouts for their World and American Records. I believe the Women get $25k for the record (each) and the Men get $15k since they are rarely run events.
He should pay Tim $20k to slow it down to a crawl in Monaco.
Not bad to crawl sub 3:30.
Any runner better than one of your heroes influences your life heavily it seems.
Monaco will be covid-cancelled. Mark my words.
Sapel wrote:
How many World Records are held at Monaco? I am not seeing any.
The Women’s 1500m, Mile and 3000m steeplechase records were all run in Monaco.
But I know that women’s sports don’t count on letsrun so no shame on missing those.
DC Runner 4 wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
Yes indeed. That was the other point I thoughy of and then forgot. Totally agree. Thanks.
He NEEDS long reps, 300-500 m at 50 flat pace. NEEDS it!
Good idea!
I think the point here is that if it is such a fast track with all the talent they have every single year they don't have a major world record over 400m, especially 800m, 1500m Men's, 3000m or 5000m, etc. I'm sure you get it.
Jeff Wigand wrote:
Sapel wrote:
How many World Records are held at Monaco? I am not seeing any.
The Women’s 1500m, Mile and 3000m steeplechase records were all run in Monaco.
But I know that women’s sports don’t count on letsrun so no shame on missing those.
DC Runner 4 wrote:
DC Runner 4 wrote:
He NEEDS long reps, 300-500 m at 50 flat pace. NEEDS it!
Good idea!
Thanks!!!
Sapel wrote:
I think the point here is that if it is such a fast track with all the talent they have every single year they don't have a major world record over 400m, especially 800m, 1500m Men's, 3000m or 5000m, etc. I'm sure you get it.
Jeff Wigand wrote:
The Women’s 1500m, Mile and 3000m steeplechase records were all run in Monaco.
But I know that women’s sports don’t count on letsrun so no shame on missing those.
No, no one gets your point because it is incorrect. There have been 3 world records over 400m broken at Monaco in the last couple years, as was just pointed out.
Monaco is just the best example of the standard of current mondo tracks on the circuit compared to the synthetic ones of the 80's. It does not necessarily mean that Monaco is 1 sec faster over 800m than other tracks currently being used, but rather it is about that much faster than the elite tracks of the 80's.
If you make a list of the top 10 athletes who set their 800m lifetime personal best in Monaco and compare their best time not on the Monaco track, you get a mean average difference of 0.452secs. (best non Monaco time in brackets): -
- Tuka 1:42.51 (1:43.84), Bosse 1:42.53 (1:43.41), Cheruiyot 1:42.54 (1:43.14), Kamel 1:42.79 (1:43.11), Souleiman 1:42.97 (1:43.08), Rotich 1:43.13 (1:43.15), Kiprop 1:43.15 (1:43.17), McBride 1:43.20 (1:43.90), Berian 1:43.34 (1:43.84). Singoei 1:43.38 (1:43.42).
So based on the fastest 10 men who have set pbs on either track, those doing so on Rieti have run times on other tracks closer to their Rieti pb than those doing the same thing in Monaco.
Another consideration is the fact that the likes of Brussels and Zurich have been the location of many Diamond League finals in recent years, and they have been as much about winning (the prize) as running a fast time. That will obviously affect the numbers of fast times over a long period. Rieti was always a more relaxed setting geared up for fast times in the middle distances.
Let's now look at another event, the 1500m, and the unsubstantiated suggestions made against the reliability of Coe's and Ovett's times on the Rieti track.
I looked at the fastest 10 individual performers on each of the following 4 tracks: - Rieti, Brussels, Zurich and Monaco.
Rieti - El G (3:26.96), Morceli (3:28.86), Lagat (3:29.3), Coe (3:29.77), Kiplagat (3:30.13), Ngeny (3:30.42), Kiprop (3:30.46), Bile (3:30.55), Kipkurui (3:30.73) & Ovett (3:30.77).
The mean average of these 10 times = 3:29.80
Brussels - El G (3:26.12), Lagat (3:26.34), Baala (3:28.98), Niyongabo (3:29.18), Ngeny (3:29.19), W. Chirchir (3:29.29), Cram (3:30.15), T. Kiptanui (3:30.24), Heshko (3:30.33), A. Kipchirchir (3:30.46).
The mean average of these 10 times = 3:29.03
Zurich - El G (3:26.45), Lagat (3:27.40), Ngeny (3:28.12), Cacho (3:28.95), Niyongabo (3:29.43), Rotich (3:29.91), Morceli (3:30.06), Kibowen (3:30.18), T. Cheruiyot (3:30.27), D. Komen (3:30.49).
The mean average of these 10 times = 3:29.13
Monaco - Kiprop (3:26.69), El G (3:27.34), Morceli (3:27.52), Kiplagat (3:27.64), Lagat (3:27.91), T. Cheruiyot (3:28.41), Makhloufi (3:28.75), Iguider (3:28.79), Manangoi (3:28.80), Farah (3:28.81).
The mean average of these 10 times = 3:28.07
Clearly Monaco is significantly faster than Brussels, Zurich and Rieti. In addition, both Zurich and Brussels are c. 0.70 faster than Rieti! If the 800 athletes all flocked to run at Rieti because it was somehow a dodgy track, then why didn't the 1500m runners who raced there experience this advantage over Zurich and Brussels ?
I did the same analysis for the 4 tracks above over 1500m, but this time just taking the 10 best performances. So, for example, 6 of the fastest 10 times run at Zurich were by El G. I haven't the time to type the individual breakdown of athletes and times (but I have it, so can type it up another time if I can be bothered), but I will give the average time for each track:-
Rieti - 3:29.37;
Brussels - 3:28.51;
Zurich - 3:27.87;
Monaco - 3:27.84.
Again, this shows that Rieti is on average c. 0.8 secs slower than Brussels for 1500m, and c. 1.5 secs slower than Zurich and Monaco. Though the difference between Zurich and Monaco is negligible, it is worth noting that whereas Zurich (along with Brussels and Rieti) comes towards the end of season, just after the major champs, when one would expect athletes to be near to peak condition, at least in a Championship year, Monaco stands alone in being in the middle of the season (usually early July) and invariably about 3 weeks before a major champs; when athletes should yet to reach their season peaks.
There is nothing sceptical or anomalous about Rieti compared to Zurich or Brussels; indeed it seems somewhat slower for 1500m races. The biggest anomaly by far is Monaco.
Not going on a single point which was addressed to you.
"Everyone knows that elite 800 and 1500 guys run about 1 (800) or 2 (1500) seconds faster at Monaco than anywhere else."
That's what you have written. So, you were wrong? Than maybe you should clarify that.
Quercetani was the "official IAAF statistician" back in the day? What's the meaning of this at all, can you please give some confirmation? Or just admit that it completely was made up by you.
All of your post gives no sense at all - maybe you re-read it?
Your statistics are wrong.
Tuka (1:43.47) and McBride (1:43.51) have run faster outside Monaco, Tuka while winning a silver a the worlds - maybe you havn't seen this one, because it doesn't fit your theory?
But what's the point at all of a comparison monaco 800m / non Monaco 800m which lists only athletes which have set their PB in Monaco? It's almost useless.
Sp, you are really making the point that Rieti times are fast BECAUSE it's a low key, non pressure meeting? Ludicrious. The 1500m races usually were filled with local italian runners, Zurich always has had the best possible lineup.
The times from Rieti are the biggest anomaly in top athletics in the last 40 years, EVERYONE knows it.
So, your laughable stats CLEARLY SHOW that Monaco is significantly faster than Rieti in the 1500m? But slower in the 800m, why is that? Have you checked any other event? Have you compared the lineups every year?
You have contraticted yourself in this post. Is Monaco clearly faster than any other track or not?
Your calculations for his 3:35.85 1500m a few weeks ago are a bit off.
He completed the last 400m in 52.2, last 300m in 38.3 (went through 1200m in 2:57.5), last 200m in 25.4 and last 100m in 13.2. So at no point was he running at faster than sub 50 pace for more than 100m in the last 400m.
His backstraight 100m was 12.9, so if we split that in 2, lets call it 6.4 for the second 50m, that gives a last 250m of 25.4 + 6.4 = 31.8. That's a long way from 30.9. He slowed to 13.2 on the last 100m so he was clearly not able to carry on at 52.2 pace for another 275m, let alone sub 50 secs pace.
Salvatore Stitchmo wrote:
The logic of "But look at how strong Donovan is - he ran 3.35 with a 37 last 300m - he must be able to do it" is kind of funny to me. Yes clearly this points to him being in great shape but that tightrope you walk when you start running around 49.5 seconds for the first lap is a long and shaky one to say the least. Even a few tenths too fast for any 200m split can be the difference between death or glory (just ask Nijel Amos) - it would have to be a sensational and lucky pace judgement exercise to get close to 1.41.0 having never really attempted to be on this pace at 600m before.
But good luck to him and hope he goes well. Would love to see a fast one in Monaco
But his last 300m in that 3:35.85 1500m was 38.3, not 37 secs. I'm sure you are using that to make your point, but a lot of people on here see these times and believe he ran them.
Sapel wrote:
I think the point here is that if it is such a fast track with all the talent they have every single year they don't have a major world record over 400m, especially 800m, 1500m Men's, 3000m or 5000m, etc. I'm sure you get it.
Maybe that has something to do with every record on men's side over 1000m was set during the free for all EPO era and haven't been approached by anyone since?
Only flaw in your argument is that Monaco isn't a Mondo track, so it can't be the best example of the current Mondo tracks on the circuit!
I adressed all the 'points' you made re the Monaco track, but you clearly didn't read clearly what I originally wrote.
I have highlighted the word, 'about', to show a rough, non specific time; an estimate. I then backed this up in my subsequent post by showing that from stats (up to about Aug 2019, hence the lack of updated info on Tuka) of the fastest 10 men on the Monaco track ever over 800m, the average time faster they have run there than any other track in their careers is 0.45secs. If one goes on to looking at the top 20 fastest men at Monaco, or looking at the mean average difference between what any athlete ran at Monaco compared to their best time on any other track in any specific season, then you would get more data with which to compare.
Your stats looked at just 5 or 6 years at the beginning of the last decade and compared just 2 tracks; Monaco and Rieti. I never even mentioned Rieti in my original post, that was your choice to include a track that hasn't even held a meet in the last 5 years or so.
Moreover, I never stated that, 'Monaco was 1 secs faster than Rieti between 2009 and 2015', which is the statement your stats seem to be trying to contradict!
I have also highlighted the phrase, 'Regardless of why that is,' to express lack of explanation for why Monaco throws up very fast times in the middle distances. Hence I have not dismissed or questioned the possibility the faster times are not indeed the result of several factors, including weather conditions, prize money, great weather, pacing, etc. The only thing I claimed as a fact is that the 'latest Mondo material, which are certainly faster than those synthetic ones from 1980. '. Which is the relevant part in the discussion on this thread about expectations of Brazier running a 1:41 (seemingly with ease) on Monaco.
I then provided evidence (as of Aug 2019) supporting the suggestion (for whatever reason) that times run on the Monaco track over 1500m tend to be "about" (see definition above) 2 secs faster than on other top tracks. For this I didn't provide 1 track as comparison or just a narrow 6 year period, I took the top 10 performers on what many would consider the top 4 meets in producing fast times over the last few decades; Rieti, Brussels, Zurich and Monaco; and calculated the mean average for each. These 4 tracks have all consistently produced good pacing and top names running in the 1500m. The results showed that Monaco was a second faster than any of the other tracks and 'about' 1.5secs faster than the average of the other 3.
No, it makes perfect sense, as only the very top athletes are invited to Monaco, and many are not able to run there, so they are unable to produce data to be compared. Almost every Diamond League race lays on a 49/50 sec ist 400m in the elite 800 races, so it is actually making the odds far better for any athlete running in Monaco, to produce a faster time in any one of a number of other races at other venues. I never said it was fullproof, but if Monaco wasn't faster than other tracks, then one would expect to see elites running very close to their Monaco pbs elsewhere!
No, I was actually making the point that Rieti was SLOW compared to Monaco. Traditionally Brussels, Zurich and Rieti were always held after any major champs that may have been held in any given year, and were invariably furnished with very good pacing. Yes, the overall depth was always better in Zurich and Brussels, but Rieti regularly had 2 or 3 top athletes in any race that followed a good pace.
No. Well certainly not as anomalous as Monaco or Zurich or Brussels.
No, I produced no stats that showed Monaco was slower than Rieti over 800m.
OK. Let's start with the fact that Monaco was re-layed in 2010 (prior to the meet there that year), and the purpose was to make it fast and top of the range.
http://www.presse.gouv.mc/304/wwwnew.nsf/1909$/4141C64660AF4F5EC1257727002AD7E4GB?OpenDocument&1GBThis is an interesting exert: -
"The work will focus on the resurfacing of the areas concerned: the first few centimetres of the upper layer of the track will be scraped off, then replaced by rubber resin, cast in one jointless block. This is made possible due to the physico-chemical compatibility between the new and old resin. The track will be faster and therefore conducive to new records, including at the next Herculis athletics meeting - Diamond League on Thursday 22nd July 2010."
The Monaco meet was ranked No.2 in 2009 (probably behind Zurich), but was already an established meet, with Baala running 3:30.96 in 2009.
But the fast times en masse didn't start until.... 2010!
Below you will find a comparison between what many of the elite athletes ran the 1500m on the new track of Monaco, compared with their best time run ANYWHERE else that same season, not compared to just 1 specific other meet as you provided. This is something I analysed some time ago, so it is only for the 5 seasons between 2010 and 2015. I'm sure that something similar would also be seen if done with the subsequent years that followed.
In 2010 the 5 fastest men all set their times in Monaco. I did a bit of research and I've put their time in Monaco followed by their non Monaco season's best time:
1. Kiprop ~ 3:29.27 (3:30.61) difference - 1.34
2. Laalou ~ 3:29.53 (3:32.75) " - 3.22
3. Choge ~ 3:30.22 (3:31.81) ' - 1.59
4. Wheating ~ 3:30.90 (3:37.52! - although he ran a Mile in 3:51.74 which = 3:34.57, so I'll take that) - 3.67
5. Gregson ~ 3:31.06 (3:35.42) difference - 4.36.
That's an average difference of 2.84 secs faster at Monaco for those athletes. The fastest non Monaco performance in 2010 was Kiplagat's 3:30.61 in Berlin.
2011 was a bit of a down year, but the meet still produced 4 times in the top 10 for the year.
2. (second fastest that year) Kiplagat ~ 3:30.47 (3:31.39) difference - 0.92
6. Chepseba ~ 3:31.74 (3:30.94) difference + 0.80 * The only athlete in the past 6 seasons (5 if not counting this season) listed here that has run a faster time on another track other than Monaco .
7. Kaki ~ 3:31.76 (didn't run any other listed 1500 that year)
8. Willis ~ 3:31.79 (3:33.22) difference - 1.43
15. Cheboi ~ 3:32.45 (3:33.82) " - 1.37
That's an average of 0.73 secs faster at Monaco for the 4 with other listed times for 1500 that year. The fastest non Monaco performance in 2011 was Kiprop's 3:30.46 in Rieti.
2012 had 6 athletes in the top 10 coming from Monaco's race: -
1. Kiprop ~ 3:28.88 (3:29.78) difference - 0.90
3. Chepseba ~ 3:29.77 ( 3:29.90) " - 0.13
5. Willis ~ 3:30.35 (3:34.70) " - 4.35
6. Makhloufi ~ 3:30.80 (3:32.58) " - 1.78
7. Birgen ~ 3:31.00 (3:31.17) " - 0.17
9. Kiplagat Seuri! ~ 3:31.61 (3:33.27) " - 1.66.
That's an average of 1.50 secs faster at Monaco for the 6 with other listed times for 1500 that year. The fastest non Monaco performance in 2012 was Kiplagat's 3:29.63 in Doha.
2013:-
1. Kiprop ~ 3:27.72 (3:31.13) difference - 3.41
2. Farah ~ 3:28.81 (no other listed 1500 for 2013)
3. Ndiku ~ 3:29.50 (3:33.41) difference - 3.91
5. Birgen ~ 3:30.77 (3:31.90) " - 1.13
6. Tanui-Ozbilen ~ 3:31.30 (3:35.09) " - 3.79
7. Cheboi ~ 3:31.53 (3:32.85) " - 1.32
That's an average of 2.71 secs faster at Monaco for the 5 with other listed times for 1500 that year. The fastest non Monaco performance in 2013 was Kiplagat's 3:30.13 in Rieti.
2014:-
1. Kiplagat ~ 3:27.64 (3:29.70) difference - 2.06
2. Kiprop ~ 3:28.45 (3:29.18) " - 0.73
3. Kwemoi ~ 3:28.81 (3:31.48) " - 2.67
4. Souleiman ~ 3:29.58 (3:30.16) " - 0.58
5. Iguider ~ 3:29.83 (3:32.09) " - 2.26
=6. Wote ~ 3:29.91 (3:30.86) " - 0.95
=6. Willis ~ 3:29.91 (3:34.72) " - 4.81
10. Manzano ~ 3:30.98 (3:34.40) " - 3.42
11. Centrowitz ~ 3:31.09 (3:32.70) " - 1.61
That's an average of 2.12 secs faster at Monaco for the 9 with other listed times for 1500 that year. The fastest non Monaco performance in 2014 was Kiprop's 3:29.18 in Doha.
Monaco clearly has great credentials for fast time and was clearly the fastest/best track in the world for middle distances. This analysis doesn't prove it is in any way illegal, and is certainly not short, but it does raise the question as to why top athletes run on average of 2.03 secs faster (based on the data of the 29 athletes above over the past 5 seasons) on the Monaco track than on any other, over the course of the season?
I would suggest looking at the above data that the number of 'fast times' increased by 2012 and thereafter, as athletes realised that it was an incredibly fast track.