Jim Ryun is a true hero. Lifelong loser and Christian haters (Agip, fat hurts, flagpole, et al) are jealous disgusting pieces of trash. Be sure of this, losers, you will give an account for your support of democrat evils.
Jim Ryun is a true hero. Lifelong loser and Christian haters (Agip, fat hurts, flagpole, et al) are jealous disgusting pieces of trash. Be sure of this, losers, you will give an account for your support of democrat evils.
unbiasedohiovoter wrote:
Jim Ryun is a true hero. Lifelong loser and Christian haters (Agip, fat hurts, flagpole, et al) are jealous disgusting pieces of trash. Be sure of this, losers, you will give an account for your support of democrat evils.
Ryun doesn't need the support of cranks.
rekrunner wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
He couldn't have run 3:26 and 3:43 without the EPO.
What makes you think any non-African could run 3:26 and 3:43 with EPO?
I don't!
I don't think any athlete who has yet competed, African or non African, is capable of 3:26 or 3:43 without EPO.
From what I've seen over several decades, I think 3:27 high/3:28 and 3:44 high are about the limits of what is possible clean at present. Caveat - this is based on 1980's synthetic tracks, and will obviously need to be tweaked for the ever-improving mondo track surfaces. I can only estimate what that improvement might be.
I certainly don't think 3:26.0 or 3:43.1 were achieved in the late 90's clean.
aw0i wrote:
.
I think it's a shame that Ryun has taken the opinion that those that came after him and ran faster than him did so by cheating.
He didn't say that about all of them. Walker ran seconds faster due to synthetic tracks and was not burnt out by his mid 20s........Coe was dirty, epo.[/quote]
Yawn! EPO never even existed in the early 80's. There is no evidence it was being used by athletes even in the late 80's. It wasn't until the 90's that cases of EPO used in sport emerged.
carolineweber wrote:
600yd/600m man wrote:
The reason Jim Ryun does not have an Olympic gold medal is not due to Ben Jipcho & Kipchoge Keino racing as a team, 1968 Olympics, 1500m final.
The reason Jim Ryun does not have an Olympic gold medal is not due to Kipchoge Keino using P.E.D.s, 1968 Olympics.
The reason why Jim Ryun does not have an Olympic gold medal is due to Ryun focusing on the wrong event. If Ryun were born & raised in a nation that does not glorify one mile, Jim Ryun would have been an 800m specialist. Ryun was very large for a 1500m/one mile athlete. [Same height & weight as Duane Solomon.] Ryun's size really worked against him racing 1500m at 7500ft., 1968 Olympics. Ryun had too much talent to train like a Clydesdale. If Ryun from age 12 to age 27 had been a low mileage 800m man, he would have been far more successful at Olympics. There would have been no need for Ryun to be chippy toward Hicham el G if Ryun were a gold medal 800m man.
Ryun broke the world record in the mile. He was a GREAT miler. I'm perfectly fine with him running the 1500 at the Olympics.
He also broke the 880yds world record! Just saying.
Deanouk wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
What makes you think any non-African could run 3:26 and 3:43 with EPO?
I don't!
I don't think any athlete who has yet competed, African or non African, is capable of 3:26 or 3:43 without EPO.
From what I've seen over several decades, I think 3:27 high/3:28 and 3:44 high are about the limits of what is possible clean at present. Caveat - this is based on 1980's synthetic tracks, and will obviously need to be tweaked for the ever-improving mondo track surfaces. I can only estimate what that improvement might be.
I certainly don't think 3:26.0 or 3:43.1 were achieved in the late 90's clean.
Maybe 3:26/3:43 by a North African is not clean, but you were talking specifically about Ryun, and specifically about EPO.
I think you provided a great analysis about how modern tracks and the right competition would shave a few seconds off, putting him in the 3:29/3:47 ballpark.
But then you close with a statement, without any detailed analysis or argument, about not being able to run 3:26 or 3:43 without EPO, as if it would be possible with EPO.
Given that so few runners in the '90s, '00s, and '10s have run faster than Coe and Cram in the mid-1980s, and only 2 non-Africans have, running as fast as 3:28.95, I'm just curious how much more do you think EPO could bring to Ryun, and why?
Doper or not El G is the GOAT at 1500m-2000m
No one ever achieved what he did.
Just like Usain Bolt in a very different league.
I believe he was clean!!! but you can think everyone that’s is not American is a doper, very simple right?
Morceli I think was in his vicinity. 3 world titles, 3:27, 3:44.3. I know everyone assumes he was on EPO as well.
Coevett wrote:
El G was lucky testing for EPO came in 2005 and not before the 2004 Olympics.
Was he so lucky?
EPO testing was developed and first used in Sydney Olympics in 2000.
In 2002, the IAAF announced out of competition (urine) testing for EPO.
Seyta wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
What is interesting about this is when Trump offers legitimate reasons as to why "they" are much faster now (training, technology) Ryun instead insinuates drug usage.
That is despite the fact that Alan Webb is standing in the room who ran 3:46 - much faster than Ryun.
And despite the obvious facts that Ryun ran on cinder tracks, was not able to learn from the training philosophies of Lydiard or Horwill or the many exercise physiologists, had no idea about altitude training and burnt himself out young.
Just on the last point, even Alan Webb who is criticised as burning out young, ran his career best time at 24. Ryun was 20.
I think it's a shame that Ryun has taken the opinion that those that came after him and ran faster than him did so by cheating.
Let's ignore Coevett for the moment.
Do you actually think that our historic performers in the mile are clean?
El Guerrouj running at the height of the EPO Era, setting a record that only dopers have seriously approached?
Asbel Kiprop, who has been confirmed as a Doper?
Aouita, who was caught demanding that his athletes dope?
Rashid Ramzi, gold medalist and confirmed Doper?
Makhloufi, who pretty much comes out of nowhere every championship year to perform spectacularly?
The list is far longer than this, and can even include names like Farah, who ran a 3:28, but has had issues with missed tests, trained in Ethiopia where he would be away from testers, and was found associating with Jama Aden, the guy caught with a bunch of EPO and PED-syringes.
Who are we kidding when we try to claim that top performers in the mile are clean?
Centrowitz is probably one of the cleanest, and even he has his association with Salazar throwing a shadow over his performance.
This is the thing. Those are the guys YOU have decided to pick out and claim that that was who Ryun was referring to.
But Ryun simply says 'they'. 'They have other things too', he says.
Alan Webb is a 3:46 miler standing in the room. He is MUCH faster than Ryun. And for Coevett, Seb Coe is MUCH faster than Ryun (over all distances) and Cram is MUCH faster than Ryun over the Mile also. Probably could have run 3:44 but 3:46 is worlds away from 3:51.
I would be interested to know what Ryun thinks of those guys.
And to be honest Ryun would have been able to run much faster also with all the modern changes I mentioned, even in the 80s or 90s.
But he appears to take the stance that those who run faster than him did so by cheating. Nothing to do with all the leaps and bounds athletic performance has been able to come since the 60s running on cinder tracks, or even the idea that others might have come along with great athletic talent also.
He apparently reached the height of human performance on early training in old fashioned spikes on cinder in the 60s.
Everyone who came after cheated.
That is extremely arrogant in my opinion.
im not political. but el g was clearly doped. clearly.
rekrunner wrote:
Coevett wrote:
El G was lucky testing for EPO came in 2005 and not before the 2004 Olympics.
Was he so lucky?
EPO testing was developed and first used in Sydney Olympics in 2000.
In 2002, the IAAF announced out of competition (urine) testing for EPO.
These are "facts" a la Coevett.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Clueless Surfer wrote:
You're the one who doesn't have a clue. In 1966 and 1967 Ryun was at school in Lawrence Kansas.
Ryun was age 20 in 1967. And still at school? A slow learner?
Kiwis Can Fly p.187, "To give force to his argument, Dr Drake (John Walker and Rod Dixon's doctor) said that when Jim Ryun was training for the world mile record, he had a maximum aerobic capacity of 79.2 at sea level, which was increased to 80.2 after 14 days of high altitude training. He immediately reduced the world record to 3:51.1, then returned to altitude training for a further 14 days until he increased his aerobic capacity to 80.7. After that he reduced the world 1500 metres record. 'You can compare the great Ryun to John Walker, who has a maximum aerobic capacity of 82 without the benefits of altitude training that Ryun and Filbert Bayi still has,' Dr Drake told me." This was obviously 1967, just to set the record straight.
Ryun had to condition himself for altitude, the 1968 Olympics was at altitude.
restrunner wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Was he so lucky?
EPO testing was developed and first used in Sydney Olympics in 2000.
In 2002, the IAAF announced out of competition (urine) testing for EPO.
These are "facts" a la Coevett.
What a relief it is to know that runners stopped blood doping in 2002.
rekrunner wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
I don't!
I don't think any athlete who has yet competed, African or non African, is capable of 3:26 or 3:43 without EPO.
From what I've seen over several decades, I think 3:27 high/3:28 and 3:44 high are about the limits of what is possible clean at present. Caveat - this is based on 1980's synthetic tracks, and will obviously need to be tweaked for the ever-improving mondo track surfaces. I can only estimate what that improvement might be.
I certainly don't think 3:26.0 or 3:43.1 were achieved in the late 90's clean.
Maybe 3:26/3:43 by a North African is not clean, but you were talking specifically about Ryun, and specifically about EPO.
I think you provided a great analysis about how modern tracks and the right competition would shave a few seconds off, putting him in the 3:29/3:47 ballpark.
But then you close with a statement, without any detailed analysis or argument, about not being able to run 3:26 or 3:43 without EPO, as if it would be possible with EPO.
Given that so few runners in the '90s, '00s, and '10s have run faster than Coe and Cram in the mid-1980s, and only 2 non-Africans have, running as fast as 3:28.95, I'm just curious how much more do you think EPO could bring to Ryun, and why?
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Originally I was responding to a poster (Jzs) who suggested a range of times which he believed Ryun could run on modern day tracks (mondo). His range went down to 3:43.9 for the mile. I put forward my reasoning that this wasn't possible for Ryun (who I presume was clean), or indeed any runner we have yet seen, to achieve clean.
I think 3:44 high is about where the clean WR should be (and yes, I base this on who I feel was clean and who wasn't, so it can't be proved) if run with almost perfect pacing, drafting, conditions, on 80's synthetic. This would be faster on current mondo tracks, but I don't think it would be more than a second faster. And, I don't think, based on what I've seen and the stats of his races, that Ryun would be much better than 3:47 on 80's synthetics. I know a lot of people believe he was capable of faster than that, mainly due to his fast last laps, but I don't think there is much evidence at all to gather information about what he could do off a fast initial pace, which is what would be required to run those sorts of times.
Thus, in summary, Ryun was probably clean, probably capable (in 67) of a 3:47 mile on 80's synthetic (with good pacing, drafting, etc), which is probably worth 3:46 on current mondo tracks. If he could take EPO in his 67 shape and run on todays tracks, then maybe he goes 3:43 (and 3:26), but that depends on whether he is a good responder and what the average percentage increas over 1500m is! From what I've read and researched it looks to be in the region of 3 secs for the elites. In other words, EL G would probably only have run 3:29/3:46 without EPO (and the likely other cocktail he was on).
Hope that clarifies my position.
I simply do not believe that Ryun was the fastest clean athlete ever by running 3:51 in the 1960s as he is insinuating.
Just is not true.
He should have run faster himself, and many including Webb ran much faster than him, and close to the current WR, without doping.
So it is a naïve and blatantly false thing to say in front of the President of your country, in front of another two American middle distance athletes who were much faster than you (one of which actually won Olympic Gold)...
Maybe Ryun reads too much Letsrun and it has pumped up his own ego.
ex-runner wrote:
I simply do not believe that Ryun was the fastest clean athlete ever by running 3:51 in the 1960s as he is insinuating.
Just is not true.
He should have run faster himself, and many including Webb ran much faster than him, and close to the current WR, without doping.
So it is a naïve and blatantly false thing to say in front of the President of your country, in front of another two American middle distance athletes who were much faster than you (one of which actually won Olympic Gold)...
Maybe Ryun reads too much Letsrun and it has pumped up his own ego.
I concur. I don't believe he was the fastest clean miler ever either. And yes, what he said was extremely arrogant and not the best way of doing it, even if what he says (about some of the record holders that came after) is partially true.
A bio came out on Jim Ryun in 1967. His first mile was somewhere in the 535 range. 9th grade I believe. The sad part of the book is he was 20 and his best days were behind him due to insane training. One thing that stands out. Not only did he enter races as a high schooler against the very he best he basically joined the circuit, running two or three races a week. Many in Cali. The best high schoolers since may run one or two times against pros but from his junior year of high school to his freshman year of college (freshman ineligible then) he ran dozens of races against the best in the world and, in fact, was the best himself.
Deanouk wrote:
Hope that clarifies my position.
Yes that's fine. Was just curious. Thanks.
I think Ryun had the potential of being the fastest clean miler, but back then most miles were run three laps and then blast the last 440. Also, EPO was legalized in 1988 I believe, and every major endurance record in every endurance sport plummeted. at a rate never seen before.