Time at vVO2Mx - Billat, Schwartz, Daniels, and others ?

Well, sorry, but making the rest 1200-1600 (instead of 800), presumably at a slow pace, makes the workout much more doable, but doesn't make it a good workout. Just because we can do a workout doesn't mean we should.

If we're dusting off our old workouts, I ran 9:09 in HS off a steady diet of 4 x 800 in 2:15 w/ 2 mins standing rest. That workout was plenty for the purpose. 4 x 1600 at 3200 is just too much. :-)

old hand wrote:

Well, sorry, but making the rest 1200-1600 (instead of 800), presumably at a slow pace, makes the workout much more doable, but doesn't make it a good workout. Just because we can do a workout doesn't mean we should.

If we're dusting off our old workouts, I ran 9:09 in HS off a steady diet of 4 x 800 in 2:15 w/ 2 mins standing rest. That workout was plenty for the purpose. 4 x 1600 at 3200 is just too much. :-)

To each their own. I knew a state champ who did repeat 3200s in some crazy time prior to winning XC state champ. Not sure of pace. Was 2x2mi in like 9:xx or whatever.

That workout you did is solid and still supports my idea that race pace is more important than any other pace. 2:15 being 4:30 mile being 9:00 2mi pace. And you ran 9:09 my guess with the goal of 9;00 hence the workouts

Alan

old hand wrote:

Well, sorry, but making the rest 1200-1600 (instead of 800), presumably at a slow pace, makes the workout much more doable, but doesn't make it a good workout. Just because we can do a workout doesn't mean we should.

If we're dusting off our old workouts, I ran 9:09 in HS off a steady diet of 4 x 800 in 2:15 w/ 2 mins standing rest. That workout was plenty for the purpose. 4 x 1600 at 3200 is just too much. :-)

It was a week before the race. There was no fitness boost from this workout. At best it was helping out the athletes confidence. At worst it was turning him from a 9:20 runner into a 9:30 one:)

Alfie wrote:

The Wizard JS wrote:

The thing is that there is no need for running 3+ mins at faster than 3k or even 5 k race pace.( The only exception may be when preparing with repetitions at competitive speed or faster before middle distance races)

What about slower runners doing 1K reps, that need more than 3 mins to to run 1K reps at 5K pace?

They should not do 1K + reps at 5 k race pace.

Totally agree with you about race pace. And, yes, the goal was sub-9:00 and, sort of to CoachB's comment, the pace was easy through 1600 (4:30 or 4:31) but faded a bit, which isn't a knock on the workout but this was decades ago and I should have also been doing more high-end aerobic work to supplement it. In those days, the only harder efforts we did were on the track. But as for your comment, I was really just quibbling about the idea of running 1600s (especially four of them) at 3200 pace, not with your broader point. I agree that people get way too caught up in "systems" and should just let those take care of themselves. Happy holidays! And, sincerely, thanks for your contributions for many years on this board. I often search your old comments for weight training advice!

Runningart2004 wrote:

To each their own. I knew a state champ who did repeat 3200s in some crazy time prior to winning XC state champ. Not sure of pace. Was 2x2mi in like 9:xx or whatever.

That workout you did is solid and still supports my idea that race pace is more important than any other pace. 2:15 being 4:30 mile being 9:00 2mi pace. And you ran 9:09 my guess with the goal of 9;00 hence the workouts

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

Race Pace Matters.

Those types of workouts were key to hitting those PACES in RACES.

Alan

What if my goal is to improve my overall fitness and I have zero races on the horizon? How does one train to actually improve fitness rather than train for some arbitrary target?

forcerunner wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

Race Pace Matters.

Those types of workouts were key to hitting those PACES in RACES.

Alan

What if my goal is to improve my overall fitness and I have zero races on the horizon? How does one train to actually improve fitness rather than train for some arbitrary target?

Lots of race pace work.But those races should be 5ks to Marathons and not 2k races:) The old lydiard system of 2/3 hard aerobic efforts, a long run, and a bunch of mileage is still pretty solid. If those aerobic efforts should be hour runs at mp, 25 mins at hm, 4x1 mile at 10k, or 3x1 mile at 5k is a sort of up in the air. Mine and a lot of others experience is that doing longish (1k+) at faster (3k/5k) pace every week is a bit much. Something like every other week or even every 3rd is probably enough during the base phase. Or if you want to do it at 5k pace, do shorter reps (400m) as they tend to be less stressful.

I thought I'd circle back to this post. Alan makes a good point.

Race pace practice IS important as long as:

1. It's based on a realistic race pace

2. You've done the work to allow your body to abosorb that training.

3. You don't fall into the trap of thinking that if you can do X pace in a workout that you will hit it in a race and end up racing all of your workouts.

I could see a situation where your guy gets to 4 x 1600 with long rest and is unable to come close to 9:30. As a JC workout hero, I once did 5 x 1 mile all in under 5:00 but could not break 22:00 for a 4 mile CC race. None of the courses we ran were that hard, either. I also ran 5 x 1000/200 at 2:55/32 with a 200 after the 1000 and a 400 jog after the 200. I never broke 16:00 for 5k and right around the time of that workout, I ran a 3200 in 10:10, just absolutely falling apart in the second mile after coming through the first one in 4:55.

All I know is that once I started tying workout paces to an approximation of specific physiological checkpoints based on recent TT results, my teams started running way better and way more consistently. At the same time, I backed off the amount of VO2 max paced stuff in favor of more CV, Threshold, and Sub Threshold, but also including small amounts of supra maximal reps with full recovery.

For example, most recently during our Covid fall of no competition, we ran a few simulated meets breaking the team up into squads and having them compete against eachother. We spent most of the fall in an extended "summer base period" with our fastest workouts at 95% of vVO2, with the work bouts not exceeding 1:30. The faster kids did those in bouts of 400m, the slower kids in bouts of 300m to stay within the parameters. During this period, we spent most of our hard efforts on threshold type stuff. In our final TT of the fall, 6 of my top 7 boys ran lifetime PRs with my top boy dropping his PR from 11:50 as a freshman to 10:34 off of splits of 5:34/5:00. The fastest 400 he ran in training was 78.

In my humble opinion, doing 5k race pace reps of over 800/1k is way too hard. This track season I ran 13.57 for 5k and can honestly say the fastest full mile I ran in training was 4.36 (albeit on a cinder track, but still), yet in a race I was able to run three of them back to back to back almost 10 seconds quicker. That mile was actually closer to my 10k pace (29:45) than 5k.

Rather than doing 5 x 1 mile at 5k race pace, why would you not just do 10 x 800 or 12 x 600, then do something like 6/7 x 1 mile at threshold to compliment this?

Also mixed-pace workouts seem to work really well for me. That 4.36 mile was at the end of a session of: 2 mile threshold (10 mins ish), 16 x 200 (30/31 of equal recovery), 1 mile @ 5k effort and I genuinely felt comfortable. After that mile I knew I was in sub 14 shape or thereabouts, I didn't need the constant pounding of mile repeats at "ideal dream goal" 5k pace to confirm this every week.

This guy gets it.