#Facepalm.
#Facepalm.
Rhododendron wrote:
Ethiopians run Dubai.
3x in the 2010 - 2014 list, 1x in the 2015 - 2019 list. Can't be the reason for improving ...
Abu Dhabi didn't make the list, and I excluded Boston (otherwise yes, the Kenyans would have slowed down):
Kenyan top marathon performers, 2010 – 2014
2:02:57 – Kimetto Berlin 2014
2:03:13 – Mutai Berlin 2014
2:03:23 – Kipsang Berlin 2013
2:03:38 – Makau Berlin 2011
2:04:11 – Kipchoge Chicago 2014
Average: 2:03:28
(1x 2:02, 3x 2:03, 1x 2:04)
Kenyan top marathon performers, 2015 – 2020
2:01:39 – Kipchoge Berlin 2018
2:03:13 – Kipsang Berlin 2016
2:03:51 – Biwott London 2016
2:04:06 – Cherono Amsterdam 2018
2:04:11 – Kipserem Rotterdam 2019
Average 2:03:24
(1x 2:01, 2x 2:03, 2x 2:04)
Ethiopian top marathon performers, 2010 – 2014
2:04:23 – Abshero Dubai 2012
2:04:32 – Mekonnen Dubai 2012
2:04:38 – Kebede Chicago 2012
2:04:45 – Desisa Dubai 2013
2:04:48 – Tsegay Rotterdam 2013
Ave: 2:04:37
(5x 2:04)
2015 – 2020
2:01:41 – Bekele Berlin 2019
2:02:48 – Legese Berlin 2019
2:02:55 – Geremew London 2019
2:03:16 – Wasihun London 2019
2:03:34 – Molla Dubai 2019
Ave: 2:02:51
(1x 2:01, 2x 2:02, 2x 2:03)
I hope that's all correct.
Wet Coast wrote:
Hey Renato,
I am partially taking the piss out of your confidence. But you have contradicted yourself.
For example, this:
CK: You mentioned drugs. There seems to be so much suspicion from the public with many athletes and that suspicion seems to be pervasive through all countries. Do you feel that drugs are still a major issue in endurance sports?
RC: Also if I know there are drugs able to increase the ability to transport oxygen, I continue to think these drugs, like EPO or CERA, can’t work with the top African athletes. I don’t have any proof about this, but I have kinds of proofs that people looking at the effects of doping don’t have.
Wetcoast, instead of wanting to talk about his statements, you should also be prepared to listen to the responses.
You say "contradicted yourself" but these quotes do not show any self-contradiction from Renato.
You spoke before of "all East Africans", but in your own article, you see he only talks about "top Africans", and further explains his thinking depends on and requires months of training at high volumes of high aerobic intensity producing a significant increase in absolute blood volume:
"Athletes of this level, after three to four months of strong aerobic training (aerobic with high intensity, not easy run), can increase their total volume of blood percentage by 20-25%."
"If the athlete has a great elasticity in his tissues, there is no problem. In other case, this increase can’t happen, and these are the cases where EPO can work (but all the top are in the first case)."
So according to Renato, EPO can work if blood volume hasn't increased. This could also be Africans who are not at the top lacking the aerobic training.
Further down, he speaks of different effects of altitude between sea level natives and altitude natives, with the differences of STIMULI (producing more red blood cells) and ADAPTATION (producing blood cells with more volume).
So like Kirk never said "Beam me up Scotty", or Rick never said "Play it again, Sam", Renato never said "EPO doesn't work on athletes" but, as we plainly see in your very own interview, clarifies that he is talking about "top African athletes" native to high altitude, after months of intense aerobic training at altitude.
If you listened, you would see he said it again twice in this thread alone, and dozens of times, if not hundreds, in countless of threads since your interview.
There is no contradiction, but a consistent message of his thinking, admittedly without proofs.
Later, he expanded this thinking to include all top athletes, not just Africans, after the result of Sondre Moen's extensive living and training at altitude and subsequent sub-2:06 marathon performance.
rekrunner wrote:
So like Kirk never said "Beam me up Scotty", or Rick never said "Play it again, Sam", Renato never said "EPO doesn't work on athletes"
Correction:
So like Kirk never said "Beam me up Scotty", or Rick never said "Play it again, Sam", Renato never said "EPO doesn't work on East Africans".
These are your words, and the words of others, that mis-represent the deeper nuance of what Renato really says.
Wet Coast wrote:
Hey Renato,
I am partially taking the piss out of your confidence. But you have contradicted yourself.
For example, this:
CK: You mentioned drugs. There seems to be so much suspicion from the public with many athletes and that suspicion seems to be pervasive through all countries. Do you feel that drugs are still a major issue in endurance sports?
RC: Also if I know there are drugs able to increase the ability to transport oxygen, I continue to think these drugs, like EPO or CERA, can’t work with the top African athletes. I don’t have any proof about this, but I have kinds of proofs that people looking at the effects of doping don’t have.
YAWNNNNN
The only way to crack down on the doping is to give every doper a life time ban. Same goes for cycling. A no tolerance policy. Anything less than that is just a slap on the wrist as they tend to wiggle their way out of it by getting it reduced. You need to know everything that is put into your body.
I don't think it would matter much because most of the top marketing athletes busted for doping outside of Kenya seem to get off on a wide variety of defenses. It would only hurt the Kenyans because they're the country (along with a few other small countries) with the big names getting busted right now.
Look at the situation with Salazar; none of his posse got busted - only the coach took the hit. His runners get off while their coach received a 4 yr ban for doping violations...ridiculous. I guess it's called protection and $$$. So, a lifetime ban will end up only hurting the Kenyans, Moroccans, Ukrainians, Belarusians - the nations whose athletes are routinely getting caught.
Ban Then All wrote:
The only way to crack down on the doping is to give every doper a life time ban. Same goes for cycling. A no tolerance policy. Anything less than that is just a slap on the wrist as they tend to wiggle their way out of it by getting it reduced. You need to know everything that is put into your body.
Cheaters don’t think they’re going to get caught so they don’t consider the consequences. Comprehensive testing, including the ABP, is the best way to disincentivize cheating.
Not buying it.
To know this, one would have had to study athletes while they are using EPO and the same athletes while they are not using EPO (sounds Salazar-ish). Show me the study. He admits to not having proof, so there is no study. So, is he saying that his hunch is better than the prospective science? Or is it his observation of athletes that on their own free will take EPO and he gets to notate the results? He must have been around EPO-using and not EPO-using athletes to find this out.
Yes, his message is consistent. Yes, there is a difference between writing "all East Africans" and "top East Africans" and further to "all top athletes"....got it long time ago. Repeated ad-nausea.
However, athletes that he and Berardelli have been associated with have been caught testing positive for EPO, including top East Africans that train at altitude. In that interview, you will see that he wrote "AND THEY ARE COMPLETELY CLEAN. I can put my hands on fire they are clean."
But, again, they have been caught, since.
I am not saying he and Berardelli and others know about athletes doping, not am I suggesting they administered or advised, but I am asking, where is this "hunch" or "feeling" or "knowledge" coming from?
Or who was administering EPO to top East African athletes on his behalf so that he could find out if EPO and or CERA works or does not work for them?
Thanks.
But, together with comprehensive testing, including ABP, ALL the Antidoping Agencies need to give different data about the real effects of EPO.
I repeat again, after thousands times : while the effects of steroids, and GH, are well know, and till now there is no possibility, with training only, to achieve the same level of muscle strength and recovery (and WR in throwing and jumping among men, sprint, throwing and jumping among women, clearly show it with FACTS that are the RECORDS, still not bettered after 35 years), THE EFFECTS OF EPO ON THE PERFORMANCE IS OVERRATED BECAUSE FOR ANTIDOPING EPO IS THE MAIN BUSINESS.
If WADA wants to know the real effects, needs to invest some money for a serious research, not a bullshit like in the past with 15 boys (kenyan) with average 9'35" and 15 boys (scottish) with average 11'10", and after the most stupid experiment I saw in my life, to consider this as a PROOF that EPO works for top Kenyans too.
Maintain the ban for 4 years, or prolong to 6 years (for legal reasons, a ban for life it's not possible after the first fault), for all athletes using EPO, but at the same time EXPLAIN THAT, IF YOU TRAIN AT YOUR BEST IN ALTITUDE, THIS DOESN'T GIVE ANY ADVANTAGE.
Continuing to speak about 4 minutes in the Marathon, 1 minute in 10,000m, 10" in 3000m, is the best way for PUSHING athletes without ethics to dope. Instead, explain there is not advantage (or the advantage is very small), and, in front of a ban for 6 years, also unethical athletes, not completely stupid, prefer not to risk their career for something very small.
And, other thing : WADA needs to increase its credibility, cancelling a lot of substance that, really, don't have any effect on the performances, and needs to speak about DOSAGE (word that doesn't exist for the Antidoping rules), so if you have a "trace" of steroids that can't help anybody because a supplement is polluted or because some medicine for cough produced in India has a very small percentage of steroids inside, or if you take every day one kg of roids (of course this is a provocation...), the sanction is the same.
What happens now, is that there is the same sanction for substance that really can change the situation of the best results, and for something that is really useless, but can be used only like masking agent (so, athletes can't use for the REAL task).
In a moment very difficult for athletics, a sport living at top level essentially with money from sponsors and governments, we see the money reduced every year, while the money requested by antidoping continues to grow. Also if I understand the importance of antidoping, I can't accept that there is more money for catching unethical athletes, than the money for promoting the sport.
Antidoping became too much a self-referential business, instead than a service for the sport, and something has to change.
Wet Coast, can you be so kind to write the names of athletes coached by myself who were been caught ? Maybe I have some lack in my memory, but I don't remember one only athlete (and in my career I coached, maybe, more than one thousands, including Italian, European, Kenyans, Ethiopians, young and less young, not strong and World Record Holders...) coached by me who was caught for doping.
About the fact I have no proves that athletes can't have some advantage using EPO (because the only way is to coach the same athletes WITHOUT Epo and WITH Epo), this is correct, but this is the same on the other field : tell me which proof there is that athletes running fast with EPO were not able running also faster BEFORE taking EPO, since we don't know WHEN they started to dope ?
For example, I have many doubts about the positivity of Asbel Kiprop. But, supposing he really took EPO, who knows when he started ? There is the proof he had EPO at the end of the WORSE season of his career. If he ran 3'26"69 clean, and 3'33" the year of EPO, where is the proof that EPO can give some advantage ?
And what about athletes who improved a lot their PB after coming back from a ban ? For example, Mathew Kisorio (under 2:05 several years after the ban, and before never under 2:10) ? To say that "Who doped before, continues to dope" is a supposition, not a Fact and not a Proof.
I can accept that some top athletes run fast WITH EPO (also if I think he could achieve the same result without doping, changing training). The problem is that the pseudo-scientist of antidoping, and the most part of LR posters, don't accept the possibility that athletes RUNNING FASTER THAN THE CONVICTED DOPED achieved their result in clean way.
You coached Rita Jeptoo. And Wilson Kipsang. Although he didn't test positive, he tampered with evidence of his whereabouts and missed at least three tests in 12 months. This is off the top of my head, you coached a lot of athletes, so I would have to do some searching. Again, I am not accusing you of administering or advising, but that they performed especially Jeptoo better as a doper than any other time in her career, no?
I agree with your comment about Asbel, and I know it is a leap to suggest because now that there are 53 banned +/- Kenyans that he must be guilty considering the apparent corruption that goes on there as everyday life. I think what you are referring to with Kiprop is when the viscosity of the blood changes for top athletes, yes?
As for generally improving after, if we do not have evidence of when they doped (as you indicate with Kiprop) and when they stopped etc etc, then what do we really know about Kisorio and others? Some performance-enhancing drugs have long-term or lingering benefits according to the scientific community. Not sure if that applies to EPO though.
Anyway, if we are going to guess, assume, take leaps then it could be argued just as much that Kisorio likely doped after to improve his marathon time by five minutes after his ban.
Wet Coast, I was the coach of Rita Jeptoo from 1998 till the beginning of 2006, and of sure she never used any doping when was in training with me in Iten.
After this, she married, had a baby, changed manager and went to Federico Rosa. And, for what I know, her doping was a "sin of greed of money". She already had won Boston (2013), Chicago (2013), Boston (2014) and already was the winner of half million dollars of Jackpot. For that reason, she was offered a big appearance for running Chicago 2014, but she had a car accident, and for almost 3 months was unable to train.
The logic is to inform the organiser of Chicago (Pinkowski) explaining the situation and renouncing to run. Instead, some doctor told her she could cut the normal time used for reaching the 80-85% of aerobic shape (the level athletes need to have before the final specific period) using EPO, and she did. And don't forget she was not in shape in Chicago : she won because the other athletes feared her personality in competition, but the shape of Rita was the worst of the last 5 years.
About Wilson, I worked with him till 2013, and I can say he was always perfect as athlete and as person.
So, really I can't understand what the situation of these athletes 7 years after quitting to work with me can be connected with what I said before.
Thanks.
Again, just top of my head. You coached so many. Another one from long ago was Daniele Muecci who you allegedly advised, but I don't know that and he was caught a long time ago for EPO....anyway, until scientific studies that are done in a rigorous manner.....I cannot buy the idea that EPO doesn't help top African athletes based on the evidence that you don't have or are not willing to demonstrate.
I did have a conversation with a former world record holder in the marathon (not to be named here) who doesn't understand your "blood too viscose" comment about taking EPO or CERA for top athletes. Perhaps, if you don't mind, you can explain and share any evidence?
The Italian racewalker who hired a haematologist because (your words) 'wanted to prove to everyone that he was clean' is the funniest one of all.
I never advised Daniele Meucci, whose coach when was able running fast was Massimo Magnani, and Daniele Meucci never was caught for doping. Probably, you make confusion with somebody else, but I don't know who : maybe Alberico Di Cecco, who won Rome Marathon in 2005 with 2:08:02 (when I already was no longer in the Italian Federation), was charged for doping, but, after a civil trial lasting 7 years, with the intervention of several experts, was cleared because it was demonstrated that the results of the analysis were not correct for something happened during the transportation of ther samples to the lab.
Trollism, do you really think that somebody already banned for 8 years, who never can come back to competitions till when is 41.... can spend a lot of money continuing to ask controls from independent experts about his sample, sure that there was some mistake in the procedure ?
The test was on 1st of January, the level of steroids found was so small that was completely useless for having some advantage, and he well knew to be controlled every 15 days.
His coach was one of the "talebans" against doping, collaborator of WADA for long time ; the hematolog who tested him every two weeks was ptof. D'Onofrio, the same involved in the ABP who is an expert of WADA. Do you really think somebody can be so stupid ?
Maybe. But he was banned for two years with seven others. I think they were later acquitted for a technicality. But I have the name correct.
Which name, Wet Coast ? Di Cecco or Meucci ? I can guarantee Meucci never was doped, you can control in all the list of doped athletes after 2000
My post wasn't about the merits of what Renato told you "he continues to think...".
It was about statements you made.
Getting to the merits, you cannot only fault Renato for not having proof, because there is no proof either way on EPO's effect on the fastest performances of the fastest athletes. Any thinking based on prospective science is also a hunch as science hasn't done the right studies on the right people to form anything more than a hunch. So it's a case of a hunch based on experience but no proof, versus a hunch based on no experience with no proof.
Renato has also provided you with the basis for "his thinking" in your interview: his personal experience with training many athletes to elite and world record performances, and his personal confidence that these were performances were clean. Personal experience has a strong influence on personal thinking.