70-75mpw with 2 days quality Vs 50-60mpw with 3 days quality

I think you should compromise and do 60 a week with 2 quality sessions and one long run. Otherwise, one quality session and one long run workout or even just one quality session and one long run until you feel good again. IMO the long run is pretty key to getting better for those longer races. I've been able to run some fast mile/2 miles with low mileage and high intensity but the lack of base really starts to show in the longer races. Every time I've raised my mileage (even just from 40 to 50) my legs feel like trash and it takes some adjustment but I think 12 weeks to build 20 miles is actually pretty short - probably not so short that you will get injured but short enough where it's still a lot for your body to adjust to.

35-40mpw with 4 days quality

Something is a little off with your paces or your math, I think. If your easy long run is 7:30/mile, then your 4x8' and 6x3' adds up to about 10 miles. So that's 14% if a70-mile week, not including any strides, hills, or other time spent at or near threshold effort.

If you are running significantly less than 10 miles of quality (assuming flat fast terrain), then your 7:30 pace is probably too fast to be running on easy days, particularly if you are striving for 80/20 with a good deal of 5K-pace work.

Most mortals doing 80/20 are doing most of the 20 at tempo or threshold, and very little at 5K or faster. So give yourself permission to count your marathon pace (tempo), or slow things down (run your workouts at 10k and 15-20k pace or your easy runs at 8:30) and add another rep on workout days.

I don't think three quality days plus a 15+ mile long run would work for too many people.

Lessismore wrote:

35-40mpw with 4 days quality

The '90s called. They want their training back!

I'd say stick with what you are doing. If you're prepping to run road races, that's probably all you need. Maybe throw in some strides during the last few miles of your long run. You can sneak in something like 4-6 x 200 @ mile race pace with full recovery on one of your easy days. It won't take anything out of your gas tank and it's a cheap easy way to not get out of touch with your track racing paces.

It’s yet another post asking for advice without providing substantial details. Thus any advice given is a crap shoot.

Provide the following if you want serious responses from experienced runners.

1. Age

2. Sex

3. How many years running

4. Immediate and long term goals

Trouser Snake wrote:

It’s yet another post asking for advice without providing substantial details. Thus any advice given is a crap shoot.

Provide the following if you want serious responses from experienced runners.

1. Age

2. Sex

3. How many years running

4. Immediate and long term goals

PRs also needed. The easy long run pace and 8min long intervals at 10k effort don't match. 8 minutes seems far too long. Shorten those intervals and do more reps, there's also no need for 5k intervals every week when your races are months away.

80-85 mpw, with three quality days.

Thanks for the reply. To clarify, I meant I do either the 6x3 OR the 4x8 in a typical week. So if I cover 5.5 in that session, that would put me at about 8% of a 70 mile week if that's the only faster paced running. The 6x3 would only give me ~3 miles, so 4%. Obviously if I put some quality in the long run, then I'll be getting close to (or over) 20% (if I included 10 miles marathon effort for example... But more often than not, my long runs are at easy pace (towards the faster end)

Trouser Snake wrote:

It’s yet another post asking for advice without providing substantial details. Thus any advice given is a crap shoot.

Provide the following if you want serious responses from experienced runners.

1. Age

2. Sex

3. How many years running

4. Immediate and long term goals

Thanks. I was trying to keep from writing too much.

34yo male. Took up running at 27. First race was a 2hr half marathon, now down to 1:19 for the half (got there by 2017 - and haven't made much of an improvement since, but I did take around 9 months off training to go traveling).

5k - 17:30 (I think this is week, went out too hard be died)

10k - 35:30

HM - 1:19

M - 2:54 in Seville. Hot and stopped to stretch cramps in last mile. Again probably a bit slower than I was worth

I'm very close to PB shape at the moment I'd imagine. Goals are simply to bring down those PBs from 10k to Mara. I'm planning on Valencia in December if it's on + a 10k and HM in November and October... But that's about as much as anyone can plan races right now

.......

To the other poster who said the paces 7:30 Vs 10k don't tally - I tend to try to run on effort rather than hitting particular mile splits. I think approx as follows:

Intervals like 6x3(3) - 5k effort

Intervals like 4x8(2) - 10k effort, but this mayb blue in to HM effort tbh

Long runs - I've done a bit of pfitz type training before, so long easy runs tend to end up progressing a bit in pace (again on feel). Last week's 20 miler started 8:00 but finished about 7:10, and the average was 7:26. That is on the faster end of what is typically for me, so call it 7:30

Easy runs - all on feel... Could be 8:40 if I'm knackered and it's a very much recovery day, could be 7:30 if feeling fresh. Average would be 7:45 ish

CoachB wrote:

Lessismore wrote:

35-40mpw with 4 days quality

The '90s called. They want their training back!

I'd say stick with what you are doing. If you're prepping to run road races, that's probably all you need. Maybe throw in some strides during the last few miles of your long run. You can sneak in something like 4-6 x 200 @ mile race pace with full recovery on one of your easy days. It won't take anything out of your gas tank and it's a cheap easy way to not get out of touch with your track racing paces.

Thanks! I actually forgot to mention, I do try to do 6x20s fast each week - it's on feel and I don't look at the GPS until after I get home, but it tends to be 4:50ish (that might not be accurate mind you, GPS and short rep paces tend to be all over the place), but it's ballpark. So I suppose I'm already hitting something similar to 6x200

Sorry, this is what I get for replying having just woken up. My 6x20s would be closer to 100m rather than 200. I do sometimes do 30sec 'sprints', which would be more like 200s

....

Earlier post was meant to say 10k efforts BLUR in to HM effort.... Not 'blue'!

what is your level and what distance are you training for?

Don't worry about the 80/20 rule. It is more like "you should do more than 20% quality" and not "you need to do at least 20% quality".

Also, for me, anything above 80% max heart rate is quality so i'm sure you are not far from 80/20

If i were you, i would try 2 workouts+ the long run and keeping the 70miles but doing the long run on the shorter side and only easy pace. And going slower all the other days. 2days easy in between the 2 workouts.

And maybe doing only 1 workout every other week at the beginning if necessary.

Also the second workout can be an easy one at first.

I see you asnwered my questions before.

Your easy pace (7'30) is the max that can feel easy for your level. You should not run all your easy days at that pace. aroud 8'/mile should be your average on easy days and on recovery days after workouts it should be even slower, like in the 8'30-9'30 range.

That is why you can't do two workouts + long run and keep the mileage. The mileage is just ran too fast for you to be able to recorver from workouts!

One day a week but make it 5x18. Every second week do it as a progressive run from easy, MP, HMP, 10k, 5k.

Impala31 wrote:

I see you asnwered my questions before.

Your easy pace (7'30) is the max that can feel easy for your level. You should not run all your easy days at that pace. aroud 8'/mile should be your average on easy days and on recovery days after workouts it should be even slower, like in the 8'30-9'30 range.

That is why you can't do two workouts + long run and keep the mileage. The mileage is just ran too fast for you to be able to recorver from workouts!

Thanks. I agree that the 7:30 long run pace is at the upper end of easy; I suppose that was by design as much as anything - I don't like to feel like I'm plodding. But still that's only one day of the week, and I don't tend to find 8min pace long runs to be that much easier, when I have used that pace previously.

On the regular easy days, the thing is I don't feel that I push the pace much... Maybe I do subconsciously? Sometimes I run around 8s sometimes it's 7:45 like this morning (for an hour); but it's always on feel and I never 'push' if you know what I mean. To run 8:30 pace the day after a workout is fair enough, but I feel like I'd have to consciously force myself slower to be over 8min on a 'normal' easy day, or a long run. Is this necessary?

On your previous post, I'm reluctant to drop the long run duration too much, as I still want it to be appropriate for marathon training. Different question, but what is the thinking on that? I've always seen 2hr - 2:30hr as the appropriate range, so 15 minimum (if I go very slow at 8s)

Yes, you need to force yourself to slow down on a recovery day (the day following a workout). That is how you recover fast.

If you are used to run 2h+ then it'is fine to do the long run at 7'30/mile. Or you can try 8'/mile but then add some marathon pace in it. Or progression long run starting at 8'30 to 6'30 last 10-15'.

But dont do more than 2h more than once a month. 2h is already a tough long run if you put some faster-than-easy pace in it.

The other easy runs during the week should be around 8'/mile.

And take an easy week frequently (like 2 days off, 60% usual mileage).

You should be able to try sub 2h50 next time.

Keep the mileage up, ease into adding a second interval session, if you're a LD runner make it a tempo/cruise intervals such as 5 miles @ Hm pace or 3x2 miles r:2' @ HM pace. This isn't too strenuous but is much better than an easy run. Keep the long run, you can relax on the LR pace if you're feeling tired. I usually don't try to hit a pace with LRs, sometimes I feel good and will hit 6:25, sometimes I will go for 7:30s ... it really depends, and isn't that important unless you're training for the marathon. (32 min 10k runner for reference but I'm more of a mid-d guy)

What I wouldn't do is add another hard aerobic session around 3k/5k pace ... those are usually harder on the body than a tempo/cruise interval session, and seem to be what you want to avoid. Also, if you're aiming on performing in the 3k or less, add a lactic tolerance session instead of the cruise intervals/tempo biweekly. Always keep a high end aerobic workout, ie: the 3'/3' @ 5k effort.

Impala31 wrote:

I see you asnwered my questions before.

Your easy pace (7'30) is the max that can feel easy for your level. You should not run all your easy days at that pace. aroud 8'/mile should be your average on easy days and on recovery days after workouts it should be even slower, like in the 8'30-9'30 range.

That is why you can't do two workouts + long run and keep the mileage. The mileage is just ran too fast for you to be able to recorver from workouts!

+1 good advice here ! Easy runs easy!!

Impala31 wrote:

Yes, you need to force yourself to slow down on a recovery day (the day following a workout). That is how you recover fast.

If you are used to run 2h+ then it'is fine to do the long run at 7'30/mile. Or you can try 8'/mile but then add some marathon pace in it. Or progression long run starting at 8'30 to 6'30 last 10-15'.

But dont do more than 2h more than once a month. 2h is already a tough long run if you put some faster-than-easy pace in it.

The other easy runs during the week should be around 8'/mile.

And take an easy week frequently (like 2 days off, 60% usual mileage).

You should be able to try sub 2h50 next time.

Thanks that's really helpful. I always struggle with keeping long runs in perspective; should it be sufficient to only run over 2hrs once a month? From a marathon perspective?

I have a tendency to feel that unless I'm running 2:15 to 2:30hr for the long run, then I'm not really doing "proper" marathon training - I realise that might sound stupid, but it's something I struggle with - the tendency to want make every long run a minimum of 18 miles. Is there a place for 14-15-16 mile long runs in marathon training? Would these shorter long runs need to include some faster than easy elements?