Is Drew Hunter wasting his potential by training with Tinman?

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

The Wizard JS wrote:

I don`t agree with this you say. There are at least one other way to practice it, and that way has mainly two parts.... 1) Set the runner in so good shape that he/she doesn`t get substantially fatigued by following the race pace to the last lap 2) Work separately at the runner`s optimum sprint ability . One workout, one purpose.

The thing is running 60m all out at the end of the workout isnt really teaching your sprint the last 100m of a race. If that is what you are trying to practice you would be doing things like 200ms where you run the first 100m at 5k pace and then sprint to the finish.

60s and the like are for developing max speed. You don't do that when your tired.

Well......to build the very best runner of an individual runner today in a modern way resembles to build a modern villa of today. The different segments witch are often put together separately contributes to the final completed work. Most runners think they have reached their individual top sprint speed , but in most cases it`s possible to sharpen a little more by pure sprint workouts.What`s more important is to be able to stay in the race to the last lap and still feel quite fresh, if you can`t it doesn`t matter how much you tried to sprint when fatigued in training. That`s a fact!

So what is the best way to really improve speed? Distance runners can't spare a day every week doing flying 30s, 50s, whatever. Do you devote something like 6 weeks to this during an offseason base training cycle? And then how do you maintain it? How often do you need to keep in touch? Will a couple of very fast 200s at the end of an interval session do the trick for maintenance?

sizlin wrote:

No I completely agree with you there, but I would then ask you why strides are done after a workout or run? If they don’t serve a purpose.

All I’m saying is that there are other reasons to run at max speed than exclusively to improve max speed.

Strides aren't done to develop max speed. They have nothing to do with 60s at the end of a workout.

60s at the end of a workout are what someone who read that doing sprints is important for distance runners and adds them to the program without understanding the purpose and the stress they cause or what they are trying to accomplish.

At a certain level a lot of distance guys don't respect sprint work. After all how hard can it be to run hard for like 8-12s? Throw in the mentality of harder is better and you end up with pretty unproductive work.

The best way to really improve sprint speed is 10 - 30 m flys with acceleration of 30-60 m in beforehand........and distance runners can spare a day now and then to develop their optimum sprint speed. And when it comes to middle distancers they also need to complement with mainly squats. I coach my runners daily and at least weekly when preparing for next week to come out from the training week done. That`s individual coaching at the highest level.

sizlin wrote:

No I completely agree with you there, but I would then ask you why strides are done after a workout or run? If they don’t serve a purpose.

All I’m saying is that there are other reasons to run at max speed than exclusively to improve max speed.

I don't know why strides are done after an easy run - my HS coach said it was to "break up the muscle memory". I know that doing strides after an easy run made me feel different (mostly better) on the next day's run.

When I have my HS athletes do strides after a run, they're doing barefoot strides on grass. We do this as a progression (barefoot jog --> barefoot strides --> barefoot special endurance 1 200s-300s).

I can see the benefit of getting some FT fiber activation, to keep in touch with that and not letting it completely atrophy, but I don't otherwise see a use. Just my opinion

The max speed day we do (HS runners) is 15min up, 10 x fly 30 (w/20-30m acceleration) and 3-4 min walking rest, then 20-30min easy cooldown depending on training age. to keep things alactic, you don't want them to run more than 6-7 seconds at a time (this is how I understand it) so your rookies might even benefit from doing fly 10s or 20s, depending on how many meters it takes them to get up to max velocity. It's also about form and control, so I always tell them to go as fast as you can without breaking form & twisting all over the place.

If you stay alactic, this is basically an easy run day, with a 24 hour recovery. We like to use it after a tempo run or a long run

So strides aren’t done to improve max speed...

These 5x60m aren’t meant to improve max speed...

But one of them is useful and another isn’t?

sizlin wrote:

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

Strides aren't done to develop max speed. They have nothing to do with 60s at the end of a workout.

60s at the end of a workout are what someone who read that doing sprints is important for distance runners and adds them to the program without understanding the purpose and the stress they cause or what they are trying to accomplish.

At a certain level a lot of distance guys don't respect sprint work. After all how hard can it be to run hard for like 8-12s? Throw in the mentality of harder is better and you end up with pretty unproductive work.

So strides aren’t done to improve max speed...

These 5x60m aren’t meant to improve max speed...

But one of them is useful and another isn’t?

you might say one of them is useful and one of them is inefficient

Running 10 x fly 30 s with just 3-4 min rest is double too much for that kind of workout. The bodies needs half o that amount of reps ( 3-5 ) and at least double recovery time for full improvement and about 10-15 min .

As to whether Drew is doing the right thing by training with Tinman is not for me to say. What I will say is this. For him to have run the kind of times he has run doing no more mileage and intense speed work than he has done says he has an insane amount of raw ability. It would be interesting to know what he could do with an 85 mile/week base and just 1 intense interval workout a week.

apollo1 wrote:

As to whether Drew is doing the right thing by training with Tinman is not for me to say. What I will say is this. For him to have run the kind of times he has run doing no more mileage and intense speed work than he has done says he has an insane amount of raw ability. It would be interesting to know what he could do with an 85 mile/week base and just 1 intense interval workout a week.

He can stay with low mileage but should switch to JS as coach. Would make him reach his limits.

JS is the answer wrote:

apollo1 wrote:

As to whether Drew is doing the right thing by training with Tinman is not for me to say. What I will say is this. For him to have run the kind of times he has run doing no more mileage and intense speed work than he has done says he has an insane amount of raw ability. It would be interesting to know what he could do with an 85 mile/week base and just 1 intense interval workout a week.

He can stay with low mileage but should switch to JS as coach. Would make him reach his limits.

Ah yes, coach Jerry Schumacher.

referfref wrote:

JS is the answer wrote:

He can stay with low mileage but should switch to JS as coach. Would make him reach his limits.

Ah yes, coach Jerry Schumacher.

I mean it has to sting a bit, knowing if he was with Jerry he'd probably have run 13:00 by now.