Is Drew Hunter wasting his potential by training with Tinman?

Working Stiff wrote:

For some context, here's Drew Hunter's training log

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jea_nGALhC4OcQXDwjiFXVM2HYG1tm3Fgx3dR5u2i1I/edit?usp=sharing

nice of them to share this for all of us to pick it apart.

in all seriousness, it's great that they are so open with this stuff. the discussion gets ugly here, but the debate is healthy and educational.

sizlin wrote:

Maybe I’m not wording my argument correctly.

So how do you teach distance runners to maintain form and produce as much power as possible while they’re fatigued?

Simply you must practice sprinting at the end of depleting sessions, there’s no other way to train that last 100m than to practice it.

I don`t agree with this you say. There are at least one other way to practice it, and that way has mainly two parts.... 1) Set the runner in so good shape that he/she doesn`t get substantially fatigued by following the race pace to the last lap 2) Work separately at the runner`s optimum sprint ability . One workout, one purpose.

The Wizard JS wrote:

sizlin wrote:

Maybe I’m not wording my argument correctly.

So how do you teach distance runners to maintain form and produce as much power as possible while they’re fatigued?

Simply you must practice sprinting at the end of depleting sessions, there’s no other way to train that last 100m than to practice it.

I don`t agree with this you say. There are at least one other way to practice it, and that way has mainly two parts.... 1) Set the runner in so good shape that he/she doesn`t get substantially fatigued by following the race pace to the last lap 2) Work separately at the runner`s optimum sprint ability . One workout, one purpose.

The thing is running 60m all out at the end of the workout isnt really teaching your sprint the last 100m of a race. If that is what you are trying to practice you would be doing things like 200ms where you run the first 100m at 5k pace and then sprint to the finish.

60s and the like are for developing max speed. You don't do that when your tired.

I think they can both work for that purpose. I think it’s easier to absorb training if it’s race pace>sprints rather than mix them together in multiple intervals, but I can’t say either is wrong.

In this case though, i say the last 100m because the kick at the end of a race is usually much longer, maybe 300-600m.

I bring this up thinking of those athletes you see in the very last 100m or even less, that suddenly put on a burst of speed that just shocks everyone. That is what I’m referring to by “kicking”. Training for max effort when tired will improve that.

sizlin wrote:

I think they can both work for that purpose. I think it’s easier to absorb training if it’s race pace>sprints rather than mix them together in multiple intervals, but I can’t say either is wrong.

In this case though, i say the last 100m because the kick at the end of a race is usually much longer, maybe 300-600m.

I bring this up thinking of those athletes you see in the very last 100m or even less, that suddenly put on a burst of speed that just shocks everyone. That is what I’m referring to by “kicking”. Training for max effort when tired will improve that.

And why wouldn't you train for a change of pace instead of doing 60ms? If you are working on your kick why wouldn't you do 150's or 200s where you drop the hammer half way through to practice accellerating? Why run 60ms which should be at a pace that you never hit in a race (i.e. nobody is kicking faster than 400m pace)?

60m sprints are for max speed development. Not for developing a kick.

These aren’t for developing change of pace, just the ability to have that closing speed

He will make the team next year and you idiots will still be arguing about workouts.

sizlin wrote:

These aren’t for developing change of pace, just the ability to have that closing speed

Which of course is why you don't do them at the end of the workout.

Everyone talking about how doing ALL OUT 60m sprints at the end of the workout is going to teach someone to kick when they're tired does not understand the science or physiology of running.

If the argument is that you want to practice what happens in a race, then actually practice that! Which is to say - if you want to close a 5000m race in 54 seconds, try running those 1200s and then do your 200s in 26-27, or maybe a 200-300-400 in 27, 40, 54. That is the actual speed of what you're trying to do.

Even if you're Centro closing a 1500m final in 50 sec, thats still very far away from his all out 60m speed which is probably something like low 40 sec pace.

Now, taking a day when you aren't heavily fatigued already, and doing 6x60m sprints, or whatever it may be, can help your ability to increase your max velocity, which will only aid your ability to close that 5000m in 54 sec.

HYPOTHETICAL CASE STUDY

If you can run a 5000m race in 13:10, and you can close a tactical championship style race in 56 sec, while also having the ability to run an all out 400m race in, say, 51 sec, then taking that day to do those FRESH max sprints can aid in your ability to improve your 400m race ability to 49 sec, which, assuming you maintain the aerobic ability to still run the 5000m 13:10, should allow you to move your closing lap from 56 > 54 sec.

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

sizlin wrote:

These aren’t for developing change of pace, just the ability to have that closing speed

Which of course is why you don't do them at the end of the workout.

Wrong. You need to practice fast finishing in workouts to do it in a race. Also, remember that your maximum sprint speed is Not going to improve, and that real distance runners can achieve it at the end of a race.

No. It’s exactly why you do it at the end of a workout.

A difference in ideology perhaps, but I will give you one more example.

Usain Bolt is the fastest man ever over 100m and 200m. But bolt will never be able to beat someone like Mo Farah or Kejelcha over the last 100-200m in a 5k or 10k even if the pace is extremely slow, like 5 minute pace (assuming Bolt could hold that pace). Because he isn’t trained for sprinting under extreme conditions. Acidosis, fatigue, etc.

If you don’t practice a skill, and sprinting is most definitely a skill, you will never sharpen it.

sizlin wrote:

No. It’s exactly why you do it at the end of a workout.

A difference in ideology perhaps, but I will give you one more example.

Usain Bolt is the fastest man ever over 100m and 200m. But bolt will never be able to beat someone like Mo Farah or Kejelcha over the last 100-200m in a 5k or 10k even if the pace is extremely slow, like 5 minute pace (assuming Bolt could hold that pace). Because he isn’t trained for sprinting under extreme conditions. Acidosis, fatigue, etc.

If you don’t practice a skill, and sprinting is most definitely a skill, you will never sharpen it.

Agreed, you need to practice a skill and what will happen in the race. The problem with your argument is that even in a slow race with a big kick (say a 5000m race closing in 54 sec) you're still maybe only closing that last 200 in 25-26 sec.

So why not practice running that pace when tired? Trying to run all out 60m sprints at, say, 21-22 sec 200m pace when very fatigued isn't practicing what happens in the race. It really only increased risk of injury. Run those sprints on a day when you're feeling good, form is right, power is fully maxed out, and you'll develop a great force production, larger pool of FT fibers to draw on, and the ability to make your closing 5000m speed more manageable by achieving a greater max velocity.

I’m say you should do both all out sprints and last lap speed work. There’s never one answer to the question of “how do I finish a race faster?”

But you will never get used to maximizing velocity at the end of a race without sprinting while fatigued

Max velocity as in maximizing velocity. Of course you never reach absolute top speed at the end of a race.

You're making my point for me, man.

Go watch a top sprinter practice. There's a reason they run an all out sprint and then wait around for 5 min before doing the next one. They need to be fresh and ready to go so they can actually run top speed, because the difference between training to improve vs maintain is so small when running at those speeds.

Distance runners should approach this the same way.

You even agree that you won't reach top speed at the end of the race. What I'm saying is that if the goal is to increase your max speed, then you should do that type of work when you aren't tired, to get the maximum adaptation. Even if the effort is 100% at the end of the workout, the speed itself is not top speed, due to accumulated fatigue, so I see it as just a waste of time.

I understand what you are saying, but there are other reasons to run at top speed than to improve top speed.

Biomechanically especially, but also running through acidosis and general fatigue. Enabling the quick firing of PCr system, producing as much force as possible while fatigued, etc.

Of course to improve max speed you must be “fresh”, but the PCr system is not activated unless you are running at almost maximum speeds anyways, so you can do it after shorter threshold or marathon paced sessions.

sizlin wrote:

I understand what you are saying, but there are other reasons to run at top speed than to improve top speed.

Biomechanically especially, but also running through acidosis and general fatigue. Enabling the quick firing of PCr system, producing as much force as possible while fatigued, etc.

Of course to improve max speed you must be “fresh”, but the PCr system is not activated unless you are running at almost maximum speeds anyways, so you can do it after shorter threshold or marathon paced sessions.

You're either really bad at making your point or wrong.

You don't reach "top speed" when you're heavily fatigued. That's why they're done when fresh (at the beginning of a workout). If you can't reach that top speed, you can't get the specific neuromuscular coordination benefits (and PCr improvement) that come from doing max velocity fly 30s-50s.

I have no idea what you're arguing, mostly because you're talking like an 70s HS coach and not like a sprint coach. "run fast on tired legs" has got to be the stupidest and most vague phrase I've ever heard. If I'm doing 6 x 300, yeah, repetitions 5 and 6 are probably going to be more beneficial than repetitions 1 and 2, if you're able to keep good form for them and depending on a whole variety of factors. If that's what you mean, cool. I think you, me, and "A good HS coach" are all on the same page.

If all you're saying is "gotta run fast after a tempo because races finish fast", well, okay, probably not the time to simulate a race finishing scenario and probably good practice mentally, but if that's the sole reason you're doing that, I would never hire you as a coach

I think sizlin is either Tinman himself or someone in the Tinman group desperately trying to defending their foolish training.

It isn't working well.

sizlin wrote:

Max velocity as in maximizing velocity. Of course you never reach absolute top speed at the end of a race.

Is it critical to hit max velocity?