Tinman or Daniels for second marathon?

Why not Hansons or Pfitzinger? If I had to choose one, I'd take a look at a Pfitzinger plan as the most marathon-focused.

lydiard

TInman has been a huge failure when it comes to the marathon. Check out Pfitzinger or Hansons or Daniels as all have had great PROVEN success.

eye on the prize wrote:

TInman has been a huge failure when it comes to the marathon. Check out Pfitzinger or Hansons or Daniels as all have had great PROVEN success.

What? He literally single-handedly coached Brogan Austin to become the US National Marathon Champion. He coached Reed Fischer to a 61 min half and potentially VERY fast full marathon, too bad the course in Atlanta was a joke so he tripped multiple times and couldn't show his shape.

Tinman works primarily with elite 3k-10k guys, so his success with marathon runners is underrepresented, but his marathon system obviously works too. You simply can't run 61 min half or become US National Marathon champ with a "failure" of a program, sorry that's just not possible.

It's also a simple system:

- low/moderate mileage, 70-80 mpw for most levels

- focus 2-3 months solely on 10k training, then do 3 months of marathon-specific training

- marathon specific training is 2 "big workouts"/long runs a week, rest is just 5 recovery days, often with runs under 60 minutes even + some strides

Doesn't matter whether you are a 2:20, 2:35, or 3:00 guy - training is similar, just paces get faster (and mileage a bit more due to the higher speed).

Surprise post of the day, LRP defending Tinman.

At your level, it really doesn't matter which plan you use, as long as you're consistent with the mileage and get in some quality. Chose the one you think you'll enjoy and will fit in with your schedule.

Do you think it will really happen??? I’ve been putting in a lot of base mileage and am itching for a BQ at Cbus this fall but I’m nervous about signing up because of all the delays with covid for our city’s races

Use the training principles of Daniels and the plan of Hanson.

Cbus won't happen this fall. Akron just cancelled and is smaller than Columbus Half/Full. Don't expect a city marathon before Spring 2021

You post a lot of cringe worthy, half baked thoughts on here but this one is right up there.

That sucks, good thing I didn't register yet. I'd hate to run a virtual race alone again and get a medal.

jecht wrote:

I am 36. Ran my first 26.2 last fall, 3:24 (7:49 pace) on a flat course in fairly cool weather with sun. Training was unstructured but did it by feel (1290 miles over 6 months, with a peak of 61 and an average of 44-46 over that time). I did 1 LR, 1 tempo, 1 track day (various combos of 6x800 up to 3x1600 as I got faster), and the long run (3 20s and 1 21), plus a bunch of 16-18s.

I will second the post on it really doesn't matter much. Getting more miles (going from 45 to 55, a peak week at 70 2 or 3 times instead of 60) is going to be the big factor rather than exact workouts.

That being said, go for more intensity of volume instead of speed during your base phase (i.e. anything before the last 8-12 weeks). Things like 10x800 and 5x1 mile at slightly slower speeds (10s/mile makes things much, much easier) just seemed to give better results for races 10k and up. Do the faster stuff occasionally (say every 3 weeks) to keep in touch with faster running but it shouldn't be a focus.

The other thing I found helpful was getting a second day of like 90mins of running to go with the long run. If you are doing long tempos (say 6-8 miles) add in a 3 mile warm up/cooldown. There is a lot to be said for getting used to being on your feet for a long time.

George213 wrote:

Use the training principles of Daniels and the plan of Hanson.

What do you mean by that?

Combine them, for a new program called DanTin. Then throw in some Pfitzinger for the culminating program, DanTinPfitz!

Agree with others here that you will improve by just consistently running and doing some form of workouts. Having done Daniels, Pfitz, Hansons and a smattering of everything in between if you want to run your goal time follow Hansons program. My PRs came after stagnating when I followed his plan, slightly modifying it for longer runs on the weekends but I knew I could absorb the mileage.

marathonplans wrote:

Agree with others here that you will improve by just consistently running and doing some form of workouts. Having done Daniels, Pfitz, Hansons and a smattering of everything in between if you want to run your goal time follow Hansons program. My PRs came after stagnating when I followed his plan, slightly modifying it for longer runs on the weekends but I knew I could absorb the mileage.

To some extent, people stagnate after doing any plan for a while and switching it up makes sense. Lots of stories of people cutting mileage after years of high mileage and having great seasons (and doing the reverse). You could make arguments for picking plans based on weakness (i.e. 10k a lot better than marathon, do more HM and MP. Marathon better than 5k, time for more work at 5k/10k paces) but the general outline is the same and the difference is more along the lines of do you do 2 HM/MP workouts for every 5k one or do you do more like a 1:1 ratio.

What I never did (or really heard of any amateurs doing) is something along the lines of Canova's special blocks where you do like 2 hours of training at MP in one day. I love the theory of it but I sort of wonder how many people running <120mpw have the recovery capacity to do this.

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

What I never did (or really heard of any amateurs doing) is something along the lines of Canova's special blocks where you do like 2 hours of training at MP in one day. I love the theory of it but I sort of wonder how many people running <120mpw have the recovery capacity to do this.

Interesting point, but structurally, it is probably a lot easier for amateurs than for elite runners since it's a lot less pounding.

Elite runner (2:04 PB) - two hours in total @MP (4:43/mi) would be 25.5 miles or 41k @MP on one day. That's a hell lot of pounding on the legs, at 4:43/mi pace.

Amateur (3:30 PB) - two hours in total @MP (8:00/mi) would be 15 miles or 24k @MP on one day.

For an elite runner, 2 hours @MP is around running a marathon at MP (divided in two sessions). For an amateur, it's just like a half-marathon at MP (divided in two session), which is a lot less pounding on the legs, and should be easier to recover from at least muscular/structurally.

What I never did (or really heard of any amateurs doing) is something along the lines of Canova's special blocks where you do like 2 hours of training at MP in one day. I love the theory of it but I sort of wonder how many people running <120mpw have the recovery capacity to do this.[/quote]

I did this sort of thing. I got a bit carried away at first and ended up doing 10 miles at MP (~57min) in the morning and again in the evening. I bombed on race day. It was too much. Next time I was a bit more conservative and would do a session in the morning, maybe 10x1km or 12km tempo, then I'd do a fartlek in the evening , alternating between MP and MP + 30s/mile for around 40 minutes. I felt like running at MP on tired legs really helped. Certainly wouldn't recommend it for someone just starting out on a structured plan.

The right answer for that is JS and his Dancan system.

Yeah you're right.

I wasn't sure before looking for Dancan in google image for an example of his training programs.