RECOVERY RUN MYTHS

uhhh wrote:

anyone have anything to say about heart rate?

as above, or whether a (true) recovery run is better/worse than a rest day?

Kvothe wrote:

There is no difference between a recovery run and an easy run. If you can't run easy pace for a run, you've overtrained and worked out too hard. If you're pushing at all on an easy run, you're going too fast and should be saving it for workouts.

Yes, there is.

Worked out too hard???? Is there such a thing as "Working out too hard?" I believe that depends on your "Workout".

"Go Run One"

I get that generally at the end of a racing season the mileage drops and the intensity picks up, but in the grand scheme of things if you just see the sole purpose of your "non workout efforts" as recovering and regrouping for the next hard workout, then you are looking at them the wrong way. You need some comfortable aerobic pushes via easy runs even at the end of a racing season just to maintain general aerobic fitness and endurance, and to stimulate that system. You really shouldn't need a recovery run after EVERY workout, that just means you're working out way too hard. Of course you need to do really hard workouts in order to achieve maximum potential, and recovery runs definitely have their time and place in training. Even if an athlete feels like crap for no apparent reason, switching an easy day to a recovery day is warranted. However, as many have said, recovery runs are more for active recovery as opposed to building fitness. So the tradeoff between easy runs and recovery runs is sacrificing potential aerobic capacity gains in order to prioritize recovery. In the base phase and early racing/workout period, however, getting fit from these aerobic runs should be your primary focus. The "hard, easy" pattern has been shown to be ineffective.

Had a debate with an athlete I used to run with on this topic. I agree with whoever said there is a difference between an easy run and a recovery run. I think mixing them up is an epic mistake a lot of athletes (myself included for a long time) make/made.

My point of view was that on a recovery run one should never ever be even contemplating hitting a certain speed. The purpose of the recovery run is literally to aid recovery from a hard effort (primarily through blood flow to damaged muscles etc etc). I once read about Nourredine Morceli running 10min per mile on recovery runs and couldn't get how and why a 3.44 miler would ever run so slow. But later on in my career I was around many Kenyans who would talk about how slow they would run recovery runs after workouts and then I witnessed it in person. I once stayed in a hotel room with this dude Kennedy Kimwetich - who isn't a big name - but he ran 1.43.0 and 2.13 for 1000m (seriously, look him up). He told me he used run 3 hours in the forest at basically a walking pace after big workouts. I asked him why - he said "I like the forest".

So back to my buddy who didn't understand the difference between easy and recovery. His theory was that his recovery runs simply got faster as he got fitter. He never understood why you would want to run so slow - in his words "I don't get any gain from running that slow though". He was saying that as he got fitter his recovery runs would go from 6.45 per mile down to say 6.20 per mile. I asked him if he got any aerobic benefit from say 40-45min at 6.20 per mile pace (at this point in our careers neither of us would have) - he of course answered no, so I asked him fundamentally what the difference was then between 6.20 per mile for 45min or 10,00 per mile for 45min in terms of gain. His answer was " I guess none". My response then was "so all you really are doing is using more energy, energy which your body needs to recover from yesterdays killer workout".

He didn't get it. He also was a super talented runner that was constantly injured and it was injuries that ended his career.

Easy run pace = slow twitch muscle development and capillary recruitment. Pretty easy to monitor heart rate wise or for old school guys who hated HR monitors what speed could you be moving nice and efficiently at and still be having a conversation.

Recovery pace = as slow as you can possibly go without your mechanics and form completely falling to sh$t.

If I could go back to my career and do one thing over again it would be more discipline surrounding recovery runs. I feel like I figured it out way too late.

SS

I should have clarified my position more. Easy is a feeling, more so than a pace, whatever pace feels like you could run forever. I try not to go slower than that just because I had a workout the previous day. At the same time, if I'm feeling really fresh, I don't do some sub marathon pace running, I'll pick it up to at least marathon pace, and usually only to there when I'm progressing to half pace or tempo pace for the last bit of a run I feel good. I see value in recovering, but not in running some sub marathon moderate pace , except as part of a progressive run. If you're not working out or taxing your aerobic system, you're recovering and training while your running aerobically whether you're at 55% mhr or 80. Except in ultra training there isn't much value in a lot of moderate or high end easy running. I probably am about 65% mhr on easy runs, whatever feels easy.

Alfie wrote:

uhhh wrote:

anyone have anything to say about heart rate?

as above, or whether a (true) recovery run is better/worse than a rest day?

I prefer a true recovery day rather than a "recovery run"

Running = impact.

Swimming = no impact, foam rolling, soft tissue work etc etc.

I understand the muscle fibre type has some relevance, in that FT types should run easier than ST types.

Honest question. Has anyone actually thought critically about the "clear lactate" and "increase blood flow to damaged tissue" theories?

I know for a fact the "clear lactate" theory is BS. Not a shred of truth there. Lactate is cleared rapidly from the body within minutes(if not seconds) of finishing anaerobic effort. How this myth persists is fascinating and depressing at the same time.

The blood flow theory is likely BS too. Your muscles are HIGHLY vascular at rest. They get plenty of blood flow at baseline to heal from the damage sustained from a hard effort.

Recovery runs are for ACTIVE RECOVERY. This means you are getting easy aerobic work in while your body is healing. The purpose is not to expedite the healing process. It's to stay fit while healing. Taking the day off would result in loss of fitness, so you put an effort in that allows you to recover and stay fit.

Yea - seems like the lactate flushing thing seems to have been passed down by older coaches to newer coaches. Lactate isn't even responsible for muscles soreness during efforts, it's actually the accumulation of H+ ions. High lactate levels were just correlated with muscle soreness.

However, I do think that a short run can contribute to a faster recovery. I'd say that recovery runs can contribute to faster recovery by giving the body a light stimulus that increases HR, oxygen intake, activates anabolic enzymes and growth hormones, which accelerates muscle recovery. The endorphins released from a recovery run might also mask some muscle pain.

I never drew a distinction by pace -- only by effort.

When I was training hard and paying close attention to such things, I ran some repeat-mile workouts on the track when I struggled to maintain marathon race pace.

And every Friday night I did a recovery run -- by design -- but it was often at a pretty fast clip relative to some "easy runs" during the week (full disclosure: I didn't run easy very often).

As for heart rate monitors, if you need one of those to know when you're running hard, maybe you should concentrate more on what you're doing.

And he's doing the run at a nice toasty temp of 83 degrees... Running in that sort of heat for that long would've gave me a heat stroke.

Recovery run = one of the biggest myth of running. Take a day off! Your body needs rest in order to recover, not more running.

"Clearing Lactate" - don't buy this either as science is science and you are right here.

"Blood flow theory" not so sure about "likely BS". Let's though assume it is BS. Off the table. Agreed. Yet many of us here have also run heavy workout sessions or competitive efforts

- what could it be about a simple walk the next day that seems to make you feel markedly better than if you did nothing. Placebo? All mental? I mean I can remember many ways of dealing with post race/workout feeling. Lying on couch, walking, running slow and running (almost certainly) way too hard. The worst for my body was doing nothing. So if vascular blood flow at rest is simply enough, what explains the overwhelming consensus that light activity (be it walking, "recovery running") makes you feel physically better?

The "fit while healing" notion though is BS. Sorry bro. I've been so sore after workouts (still healing) that even the idea of even running a 6 minute mile (once upon a time this was the speed of running that kept me "fit") was comical. Trying to run even 4 miles at 6's as an active recovery and "fitness maintainer" would have just left me hating running and would do more mental damage to me than any debatable benefit.

The real myth here, which everyone seems to believe, is that slow running is about "aerobic" development. You're not giving your aerobic energy system anything to adapt to. That happens during workouts.

The true value in those long jogs is long-term structural resistance to gravity, and good form. To a point. It will never make you faster, and if you're not smart about it, it will make you slower. The best you can expect racing-wise is to hold the speed you're already capable of a bit longer.

RobA wrote:

Easy runs = Large majority of your mileage. The "I'm going for a run" pace, if that makes sense. For me that is 6:30-7:30 pace usually.

14:30 5K guy for a reference.

So how would your week be structured for them to make a majority? I normally run 12 times per week with two workouts on Tue and Fri and a "long run" on Sunday (quotes because workouts often equal or exceed it both in distance and duration when including warmup and cooldown). Pm runs are on weekdays and they're always 30-40 min very easy jogs. AM runs the day after hard effort I often do not have the energy to run a brisk pace, the day before hard effort I'm applying caution not to dig too deep so that tomorrow's work is not compromised. Thus the only run I actually do at a pace that, say, Jack Daniels would call 'Easy' is the long run, and sometimes Wednesday am easy run. 8 out of 12 runs are way slower than that. They make a little over half of overall mileage.

For reference, my 5K is 16:10, marathon (primary focus) 2:34, 'easy' pace like 7 to 7:30, but those 'recovery runs' which make half of my mileage are slower than 8, sometimes even over 9 when particularly tired and using trails.

Many great coaches assert that easy running is a slow, conversational pace relative to the individual's fitness level. Easy pace should improve as fitness improves but really shouldn't ascend past 75-80% of max HR.

You should be able to run at least 75% max HR every day without feeling shot unless it's the day after a race or a workout that was probably too difficult. If you can't, that's a good sign of overtraining.

Don't think so much, though. If you're out for a run with your buddies, don't be that jerk that has to run 6:00/mi. You will still receive an aerobic benefit from paces slower than your usual easy pace.

From experience, Daniels' calculator gives a perfectly reasonable easy pace that can be applied across the board. If you're feeling bad, run the slower end of it. If you're feeling good, run the faster end of it. Running is not an exact science. Consistency is most important.

waefaw wrote:

Recovery run = one of the biggest myth of running. Take a day off! Your body needs rest in order to recover, not more running.

Bollocks. If you have 3 hard efforts per week, that would mean you only run 4 days a week because, according to you, you need a "day off" after each workout.

Utter nonsense

Run by feeling all the time, forget about pace.

I've improved way more running medium effort most of the time than with a forced hard/easy approach.