Tinman's "diminishing returns" philosophy about training is a great way to justify laziness

Yes Jamin. You do that. It might serve you well actually. You must recognize that what matters more is consistently logging the workouts. The details are not as important.

just tell yourself you'll complete 100 reps and stop at 8.

Intervals are a quality workout, so the point is to do them when you are fresh, and they are less effective when you aren't, so you might as well skip the last few if you can't do them in the zone where you will benefit. There are some workouts that are geared to quantity, but that isn't among them.

To use and an analogy, let's say you turn on a quality news show like NPR News Hour, but you are getting tired after a half hour. So you might as well turn it off then becuase intelligent (quality) news reporting requires your attention. If, on the other hand, it was some garbage like Alex Jones Infowars, well go ahead and listen to it all day long because you don't need a brain to listen to that nonsense.

Hang in there buddy, and don't sell yourself short!

jamin wrote:

In the below video he says maybe for a workout like 8 x 800m all the stimulus you need is accomplished by the 5th rep and the 6th-8th are don't add benefit.

I'm going to use this mindset next time I go to do a workout and intended on doing N reps and don't feel motivated enough to push through the last couple. "Diminishing returns. Time to call it a day." ?

https://youtu.be/Carxp28b9E4?t=181

This shows why so often you complain and cry about not progressing in your training/races.

I am not a Schwartz fan but first of all, he didn't say 6th-8th don't add benefit. He also didn't say he would end the session there.

You are, as usual, and as malmo has pointed out several times, just looking for excuses not to work as hard as you could.

He also doesn't say to call it a day after doing the 5 reps. He says that the system that is stressed by the 800s is almost as stressed as it could be on that day (at least the returns are diminishing) after 5 reps sou you might aswell add 200s to stress another system or a 2-3 mile tempo for the same reason. I don't quite see how that's lazy.

If you stop at 5 reps, you'll rarely be fresh for 8. The idea is to be fresh for the full 8 rep workout late in the season, ideally in the last couple weeks before you taper.

Tinman is a MORON and he misapplies the legitimate principle of diminished returns.

In an interval workout, you actually get INCREASING returns. If you do 2x800 you will get almost zero benefit, but every rep added after that adds more fitness than the one before. There is no diminished return, it just eventually gets to a point where the risk of injury/burnout becomes higher and outweighs the benefit of another rep.

Where diminished return does come into play, however, is when tinman does CV training year round. If his athletes do CV workout once a week, that's 52 in a year. How much extra benefit do you think those athletes are getting from the 45th CV workout in a year? Essentially zero.

fact checker 642572498 wrote:

Tinman is a MORON and he misapplies the legitimate principle of diminished returns.

In an interval workout, you actually get INCREASING returns. If you do 2x800 you will get almost zero benefit, but every rep added after that adds more fitness than the one before. There is no diminished return, it just eventually gets to a point where the risk of injury/burnout becomes higher and outweighs the benefit of another rep.

Where diminished return does come into play, however, is when tinman does CV training year round. If his athletes do CV workout once a week, that's 52 in a year. How much extra benefit do you think those athletes are getting from the 45th CV workout in a year? Essentially zero.

OK, you're literally describing diminishing returns when you talk about risk of injury/burnout increasing. If the 'return' is fitness, then injury has a huge negative return.

The general concept with all of these easier paced workouts is that you can keep doing them for decades and continue to improve, unlike fast interval training. Look at the Ingebrigtsens' training, or some of the Australian guys like Deek, for how people can steadily improve while doing similar training year-round.

All he's getting at is that you shouldn't "go to the well" every time. He's going for long-term development, that's all that is.

Jamin, you need to take a good look at yourself, rather than tearing down anyone else at this point.

FALSE. Diminishing returns means diminishing returns. Your 8th rep in a repeat 800 workout will give you just as much fitness (if not more) than your 7th rep. This is a FACT. It has nothing to do with injury risks.

Diminishing returns is a long-term effect, it DOES NOT happen within an individual workout session. Tinman claims to be a scientific expert, he should know this. If he meant to say the cost outweighs the benefit, then he should say exactly that - but he didn't. He said diminishing returns to try to sound smart. It backfired.

Both Tinman and Seattle Prattle are flat out wrong. There is nothing inherently better about 5 x 800 over 8 x 800m. There are no "diminished returns" out of the 8 x 800 workout, nor are there "deficient returns" out of the 5 x 800 workout. They are two entirely different workouts.

malmo wrote:

Both Tinman and Seattle Prattle are flat out wrong. There is nothing inherently better about 5 x 800 over 8 x 800m. There are no "diminished returns" out of the 8 x 800 workout, nor are there "deficient returns" out of the 5 x 800 workout. They are two entirely different workouts.

Entirely different?

5x would favor the 5K runner.

8x would start to favor the 8 or 10K runner.

I enjoyed the video.

Why is he saying around the 3:05 mark that V02 max is the pace you can run all out for only 6-7 minutes? Is that figure coming from Veronique Billat?

Jack Daniels' research revealed that the average duration at V02 max pace was 11:03. I always think of it as something closer to 2 mile to 5k pace, certainly not 6-7 minute pace.

malmo wrote:

Both Tinman and Seattle Prattle are flat out wrong. There is nothing inherently better about 5 x 800 over 8 x 800m. There are no "diminished returns" out of the 8 x 800 workout, nor are there "deficient returns" out of the 5 x 800 workout. They are two entirely different workouts.

My interpretation of what he meant by 5 reps is that the pace/rest is such that you "could've" done 8. So around 5k pace if you were doing about 1:00-1:15 rest. Maybe that's just what I wanted to hear though.

rojo wrote:

I enjoyed the video.

Why is he saying around the 3:05 mark that V02 max is the pace you can run all out for only 6-7 minutes? Is that figure coming from Veronique Billat?

Jack Daniels' research revealed that the average duration at V02 max pace was 11:03. I always think of it as something closer to 2 mile to 5k pace, certainly not 6-7 minute pace.

Tinman uses old science. More recent science indicates that for elite runners VO2 max is very close to 5k pace. You are correct.

tarckstar wrote:

malmo wrote:

Both Tinman and Seattle Prattle are flat out wrong. There is nothing inherently better about 5 x 800 over 8 x 800m. There are no "diminished returns" out of the 8 x 800 workout, nor are there "deficient returns" out of the 5 x 800 workout. They are two entirely different workouts.

Entirely different?

5x would favor the 5K runner.

8x would start to favor the 8 or 10K runner.

Either workout can feasibly be fine for 5k/10k. Depends on the pace, the runner, and the time of the next important race, among other things

rojo wrote:

I enjoyed the video.

Why is he saying around the 3:05 mark that V02 max is the pace you can run all out for only 6-7 minutes? Is that figure coming from Veronique Billat?

Jack Daniels' research revealed that the average duration at V02 max pace was 11:03. I always think of it as something closer to 2 mile to 5k pace, certainly not 6-7 minute pace.

Well....that's because he thinks the best maxVO2 pace should be 3 k race pace! ( vVO2 max! ) . But Daniels , me ,and a lot of other top coaches refers to the best maxVO2 pace to be at 5 k race pace.

rojo wrote:

I enjoyed the video.

Why is he saying around the 3:05 mark that V02 max is the pace you can run all out for only 6-7 minutes? Is that figure coming from Veronique Billat?

Jack Daniels' research revealed that the average duration at V02 max pace was 11:03. I always think of it as something closer to 2 mile to 5k pace, certainly not 6-7 minute pace.

Peter coe had it at 3K pace roughly.

Tinman is saying you should do 5 x 800m + 6 x 200m rather than 8 x 800m. I don't know the scientific argument for why his workout is "better" than 8x800 but it's a bit different from just stopping at 5x800.