Marathon pace tempo's - goal pace or current ability pace??

When you say you "did a lot of tempo work", what exactly do you mean? 2X /week? More, less? I don't think it was the pace you settled on for these runs that did you in last go around. I would do roughly 3 similar 'tempos' a month for the 2 months leading up to a full. And bumping your weekly miles up so slightly (10%), won't make much of a difference. Could you squeeze in a few weeks where you were completing closer to 70 miles?

I would do some sort of workout on Wednesdays, like tempos at lactate threshold pace, or mile repeats around 10k pace. I would usually do the marathon pace tempos on Saturdays before my Sunday long run. But I did those only like every other week, or even every 3rd week. Basically just felt too beat up some weeks due to the training grind to run fast on Saturdays the day before my long run.

I could definitely try to get up to 70 miles per week, but I currently only run 5 days per week. I struggle with runner's knee issues and I feel like I need the two days of rest. I would LOVE to get to 70 but I don't see a path to that doing only 5 days per week. I tried going up to 6 days a week this winter and got up to 48 miles per week but then I think I had a stress fracture brewing in my mid thigh. Took two weeks off and it's feeling better, but scared to go back to 6 days!

Go current ability pace.

or not , what do I know.

It could have been any of several reasons you hit the wall last time.

Per Tanda, in the eight weeks of training prior to your marathon (not counting the ~1 week taper prior to race day), at an average volume of 60 miles/week, all of those 60 miles should be run at an average pace of 9min36sec per mile. Thus, tempo runs (for example, 10% of total miles) should be appropriately balanced against some miles run slower than 9min36sec/mile. However, there may be some 'Junk Pace' (e.g., slower than 11min48sec per mile) for which those miles should not be included in the averaged total.

holpin wrote:

It could have been any of several reasons you hit the wall last time.

Per Tanda, in the eight weeks of training prior to your marathon (not counting the ~1 week taper prior to race day), at an average volume of 60 miles/week, all of those 60 miles should be run at an average pace of 9min36sec per mile. Thus, tempo runs (for example, 10% of total miles) should be appropriately balanced against some miles run slower than 9min36sec/mile. However, there may be some 'Junk Pace' (e.g., slower than 11min48sec per mile) for which those miles should not be included in the averaged total.

I wish to clarify that the 9min36sec per mile average for 60 miles/week total volume is for a predicted marathon time of 3:29:42 (i.e., your desired sub-8min pace goal).

A few observations.

You have good and nearly equivalent 5K/HM PRs, with a big drop-off to your marathon time.

You probably have too much stuffed into your week. If you can't do a workout, tempo run, and long run all in one week, cycle through them over two weeks. It sounds like 2 out of the 3 is about all you can fit into your week.

As far has how to adapt your tempo workout, I think the answer is to try all the variations you mention. That means long intervals at current/goal MP, long sustained runs at current MP or slower than goal MP, shorter tempos or interval workouts at faster than goal MP. And of course long runs of various kinds. Rotate through them, try to progress the workouts from one time to the next, and see what seems to help.

If you really want to improve. Use EPO and train above your goal pace.

Current ability pace.

You should sprinkle in some goal pace intervals into your long runs or alternatively try "finishing fast" at goal pace.

You’re hitting the wall not because you're running out of glycogen. You need to train your body to burn more fat. The paces are not your problem. Do more depletion runs. Do more long, slow runs. Strengthen your legs with 3-4 hour very easy runs like 4 minutes slower than MP.

Go at current ability pace at the start of your build. Maybe that changes by the end of it.

You're talking about two different workouts that you can play around with. Long intervals and long tempos within a long run.

Mix it up. The 6-8 x mile, 3-4 x 2 miles, 3 x 3 miles, can be run in maybe the 7:30-50 range for someone hoping to break 8:00/mile for 26.2.

For long tempos, I would try to hit 8, 10, 12, and 14 miles, all around 8:00 pace. Do the long tempos on long run days with warm-up + c/d miles to get to whatever mileage you need.

Your goal pace should be based on your current ability.

Would like some advice wrote:

break them up into tempo intervals, like 3x2 miles or 3x3 or something like that?

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Do these with your first rep at current pace and then work your way down to goal pace. I find that better than trying to hammer 8-10 mile MP runs at your current pace and redlining them.

Thanks for all the advice.

I'll definitely start slowing down the easy days. I'm running those in the 8:40's which probably is too fast. Guess that'll help the burning fat better thing. Although I remember last year once mileage got into the upper 40's and 50's, slowing down was no problem at all....

I'll also try the various tempo interval sessions, with the first ones a little slower then finishing a little fast on the final interval.

Agree that I think tried to stuff too much into a week (workout, tempo, and long run). I think my problem last year was, as Mr. Kipchoge said, chasing two rabbits (or something like that). I had random 5k's and crap scheduled throughout the summer every month or so, so I wanted to do faster interval workouts for those, but probably at the expense of doing more marathon specific training for the ultimate goal in the fall.

Whoever said there was a big drop off in my marathon time compared to my 5k and HM PR's, I see that too! That HM was the race of my life. But when I plug my 5k and HM PR's into a marathon race prediction calculator, it usually tells me I could do it at like 7:20 pace or something and I'm like yeahhhhhh right.....My dream is a BQ, but 7:10 pace sounds light years away. Guess I'll just keep at it!

Just remember that you can train a bit slower than marathon pace, since the race atmosphere and aid stations will boost your performance. Do long steady runs (up to around 20 miles) a few months before your race at 30" slower than goal pace, with a fast finish or progression in the last 10k. Your "tempos" shouldn't be anaerobic, just an uptempo CV kind of pace. "Threshold" paces are for intervals or repeats. Save that pace for your short workouts, along with VO2max repeats - for fun! Marathons aren't anaerobic.