The ME et all are certainly doing their best to assure that he does.
And soon millions of Americans will begin to lose their houses, their jobs never to return, with food prices skyrocketing already and the govt planning tax increases. As the Oligarchs see their net worth skyrocket.
The Cops are now an occupying military force ready to break heads (and already doing so).
I guess this is that American greatness and exceptionalism we are so often told about
Nonayme wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
The independent autopsy said he died of asphyxiation/lack of oxygenated blood to the brain.
It's easy to try and say that Floyd was a sickly man by listing off medical problems, but the reality is he would have been fine if that officer did not kneel on his neck.
If any letsrunners think they would survive being in that position with three blokes on your back squeezing the air out of you and one 80kg man kneeling on your jugular then you are insane.
It is a standard technique often used by MN police. They used it over 240+ times in the last few years, and 44 times the subject was knocked out. Floyd was the first one who died during the procedure.
Why? Excited delirium. After a drug overdose, which was clear that Floyd was on (even the shop owner calling the police said drunk person on drugs), subjects show overly aggressive behavior, superhuman strength, high body temperature (105F), screaming and lots of adrenaline. Floyd looked confused, mentally ill, and was able to resist 3 police officers trying to get him in a car for 6 minutes.
How are police man trained to deal with excited delirium? Call an ambulance to sedate the subject. Until then, they are trained to keep the subject locked down, to cause least amount of damage and maximum safety for everyone involved. This is from a training course - the position: stomach on floor, multiple people on the subject is what's taught in the police academy:
https://cypresscreekemsnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/ed-with-ccems-003-crop.jpg?w=1000&h=&crop=1The responses to excited delirium are:
“The subjects require physical restraint (this is because if they continue to struggle it accelerates the death) combined with emergent sedation.”
“Once the decision to do this has been made, action needs to be swift and efficient, and performed with all responders present when feasible.”
Floyd had high dosage of fentanyl, as someone said, enough to kill a small horse up to 1200 lbs. This drug is 50-100x more potent than heroine, and likely triggered his actions and massive resistance.
In excited delirium cases, 66% of the subjects die, often before the medics even arrive. Chauvin was actually trying to SAVE his life following what he was taught.
This case is not as clear-cut as everyone makes it out to be, and the biggest factor of that is the statement of the mayor, who is the boss of the chief of police in Minneapolis and ultimately responsive for the laws, techniques and procedures the police is using. But better to use some policeman who were doing their job as scapegoats and blame their personal actions for everything than to expose an incredibly flawed system with the biggest problems sitting right at the top of the hierarchy.
Definitely. That police hold being carried out in the image is exactly like the one that killed George Floyd. Perfect.
There are 4 officers there. In your image they have one holding each limb. In reality we had three on his back which makes it difficult to get air into the lungs and one with a knee on his neck cutting blood supply to the brain. Trying to save him my arse.
Let me say it again. The independent autopsy said he died of asphyxiation.
ex-runner wrote:
Definitely. That police hold being carried out in the image is exactly like the one that killed George Floyd. Perfect.
There are 4 officers there. In your image they have one holding each limb. In reality we had three on his back which makes it difficult to get air into the lungs and one with a knee on his neck cutting blood supply to the brain. Trying to save him my arse.
Let me say it again. The independent autopsy said he died of asphyxiation.
The point of the picture wasn't to show exactly the same technique, but that the police is trained to restrain subjects who have excited delirium. There are many pictures of the exact same restraint (knee on neck, allowed by MN police manual) used:
https://media2.fdncms.com/inlander/imager/u/blog/19700562/knee_on_head.jpg?cb=1591138723https://www.newstoday.fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/5ed776e187f3ec6bcb41651f.jpghttps://thumbnails.cbc.ca/maven_legacy/thumbnails/316/431/knee-on-neck-restraint-police-boudjikanian-30620.jpgIt is a dangerous technique, but is to HELP the victim who is out of control and just making things worse for himself by resisting so much. Chauvin said ONE thing in the 10 minute video: "relax" (and keep him on the stomach). He wanted to help Floyd by trying to calm him down. Science said that force is the only way to do that if the target is in excited delirium state due to multiple hard drugs in the system. Unlike the picture portrayed by media, where he stared in the camera, his attention was on Floyd's face 99% of the time.
The real autopsy said it was not strangulation or neck trauma. He never touched the windpipe, and you could see Floyd's neck and face moving. It looked like he only applied moderate pressure, hard pressure would have knocked him out much earlier or do damage to the neck.
The independent autopsy you refer to was done solely on looking at the video clips (they had no access to the body). It's hard to autopsy based on that, especially if you don't know how much pressure Chauvin was using. The "I can't breathe" was already said before the action went to the ground. The restraint and kneeing might have made it worse, but either it was from the drugs or from whatever happened in the 5-6 min car struggle (being maced or punched, never wondered why the police never showed what happened in there? And all the bruises on his face and damaged mouth. That's what the EMT was originally called for).
So he died of Covid... shame that virus just wont stop until we shut down the economy and force all schools to close, stop all concerts and large events.
The only thing that could possibly slow the spread of this horrible disease is a big ol riot.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read in a reputable source that this "independent" autopsy was done by the same team/group that also did "independent" autopsies on a bunch of other high profile black victims in recent years. If so, that hardly seems independent. It's a business model that depends on finding homicide as the COD, otherwise victims' families won't want to hire them for similar cases in the future.
Is it really true that they didn't have the body to do the autopsy? That can't be accurate. Without the body it's not an autopsy.
ex-runner wrote:
Definitely. That police hold being carried out in the image is exactly like the one that killed George Floyd. Perfect.
There are 4 officers there. In your image they have one holding each limb. In reality we had three on his back which makes it difficult to get air into the lungs and one with a knee on his neck cutting blood supply to the brain. Trying to save him my arse.
Let me say it again. The independent autopsy said he died of asphyxiation.
Can you post a photo or video of three police officers on his back?
Great images and post!
Nonayme wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
Definitely. That police hold being carried out in the image is exactly like the one that killed George Floyd. Perfect.
There are 4 officers there. In your image they have one holding each limb. In reality we had three on his back which makes it difficult to get air into the lungs and one with a knee on his neck cutting blood supply to the brain. Trying to save him my arse.
Let me say it again. The independent autopsy said he died of asphyxiation.
The point of the picture wasn't to show exactly the same technique, but that the police is trained to restrain subjects who have excited delirium. There are many pictures of the exact same restraint (knee on neck, allowed by MN police manual) used:
https://media2.fdncms.com/inlander/imager/u/blog/19700562/knee_on_head.jpg?cb=1591138723https://www.newstoday.fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/5ed776e187f3ec6bcb41651f.jpghttps://thumbnails.cbc.ca/maven_legacy/thumbnails/316/431/knee-on-neck-restraint-police-boudjikanian-30620.jpgIt is a dangerous technique, but is to HELP the victim who is out of control and just making things worse for himself by resisting so much. Chauvin said ONE thing in the 10 minute video: "relax" (and keep him on the stomach). He wanted to help Floyd by trying to calm him down. Science said that force is the only way to do that if the target is in excited delirium state due to multiple hard drugs in the system. Unlike the picture portrayed by media, where he stared in the camera, his attention was on Floyd's face 99% of the time.
The real autopsy said it was not strangulation or neck trauma. He never touched the windpipe, and you could see Floyd's neck and face moving. It looked like he only applied moderate pressure, hard pressure would have knocked him out much earlier or do damage to the neck.
The independent autopsy you refer to was done solely on looking at the video clips (they had no access to the body). It's hard to autopsy based on that, especially if you don't know how much pressure Chauvin was using. The "I can't breathe" was already said before the action went to the ground. The restraint and kneeing might have made it worse, but either it was from the drugs or from whatever happened in the 5-6 min car struggle (being maced or punched, never wondered why the police never showed what happened in there? And all the bruises on his face and damaged mouth. That's what the EMT was originally called for).
I looked up your 'excited delirium'.
Aside from the fact that you have provided a medical diagnosis by looking at a man which was pinned face down on the floor and nothing else, the risk of death is apparently less than 10%. Not 66%
If 66% of people with excited delirium are dying in police custody then maybe the police are doing something severely wrong to raise the risk of death by 500%...
Do people here seriously believe this guy died of taking drugs or coronavirus?!
ex-runner wrote:
comedyrelief wrote:
With no fatal damage to the trachea, complicating medical factors (heart disease), multiple drugs in his system, and coronavirus (dude wasn’t wearing a mask), the prosecution will have a hard time over coming reasonable doubt on the murder charge, especially since the technique was standard policy. The manslaughter charge should stick.
The independent autopsy said he died of asphyxiation/lack of oxygenated blood to the brain.
It's easy to try and say that Floyd was a sickly man by listing off medical problems, but the reality is he would have been fine if that officer did not kneel on his neck.
If any letsrunners think they would survive being in that position with three blokes on your back squeezing the air out of you and one 80kg man kneeling on your jugular then you are insane.
What I believe and what a defense attorney will present and a jury pool that is 83% White and 6% Black will conclude are two different things. Remember, the prosecutor will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to all 12 individuals of the jury that these cops intended to murder Floyd without premeditation. I just don’t see that happening. It just takes one.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/us/george-floyd-new-video-officers-kneel-trnd/index.htmlCatch it with the Kodak Disc wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
Definitely. That police hold being carried out in the image is exactly like the one that killed George Floyd. Perfect.
There are 4 officers there. In your image they have one holding each limb. In reality we had three on his back which makes it difficult to get air into the lungs and one with a knee on his neck cutting blood supply to the brain. Trying to save him my arse.
Let me say it again. The independent autopsy said he died of asphyxiation.
Can you post a photo or video of three police officers on his back?
The independent autopsy drew it's conclusions from the video and not the body and did not have the results of the toxicology report. Fentanyl likely played a role in the death and will be emphasized by the defense.
https://drugabuse.com/fentanyl/overdose/
Effects of fentanyl - profoundly slowed heartbeat, very low blood pressure.
If the EMTs had administered NARCAN, they may have been able to revive him.
ex-runner wrote:
Do people here seriously believe this guy died of taking drugs or coronavirus?!
It appears to be another example of someone who has made a series of poor choices. Resisting going in the back of the squad seems like the biggest mistake, but maybe the mix of alcohol and drugs should be the blame since had he not done that he may not have tried to use the funny money.
Nonayme wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
The independent autopsy said he died of asphyxiation/lack of oxygenated blood to the brain.
It's easy to try and say that Floyd was a sickly man by listing off medical problems, but the reality is he would have been fine if that officer did not kneel on his neck.
If any letsrunners think they would survive being in that position with three blokes on your back squeezing the air out of you and one 80kg man kneeling on your jugular then you are insane.
It is a standard technique often used by MN police. They used it over 240+ times in the last few years, and 44 times the subject was knocked out. Floyd was the first one who died during the procedure.
Why? Excited delirium. After a drug overdose, which was clear that Floyd was on (even the shop owner calling the police said drunk person on drugs), subjects show overly aggressive behavior, superhuman strength, high body temperature (105F), screaming and lots of adrenaline. Floyd looked confused, mentally ill, and was able to resist 3 police officers trying to get him in a car for 6 minutes.
How are police man trained to deal with excited delirium? Call an ambulance to sedate the subject. Until then, they are trained to keep the subject locked down, to cause least amount of damage and maximum safety for everyone involved. This is from a training course - the position: stomach on floor, multiple people on the subject is what's taught in the police academy:
https://cypresscreekemsnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/ed-with-ccems-003-crop.jpg?w=1000&h=&crop=1The responses to excited delirium are:
“The subjects require physical restraint (this is because if they continue to struggle it accelerates the death) combined with emergent sedation.”
“Once the decision to do this has been made, action needs to be swift and efficient, and performed with all responders present when feasible.”
Floyd had high dosage of fentanyl, as someone said, enough to kill a small horse up to 1200 lbs. This drug is 50-100x more potent than heroine, and likely triggered his actions and massive resistance.
In excited delirium cases, 66% of the subjects die, often before the medics even arrive. Chauvin was actually trying to SAVE his life following what he was taught.
This case is not as clear-cut as everyone makes it out to be, and the biggest factor of that is the statement of the mayor, who is the boss of the chief of police in Minneapolis and ultimately responsive for the laws, techniques and procedures the police is using. But better to use some policeman who were doing their job as scapegoats and blame their personal actions for everything than to expose an incredibly flawed system with the biggest problems sitting right at the top of the hierarchy.
Amazing post. I honestly wish what you wrote wasn't true as your post scares me as now I think he'll be not guilty and we'll have more rioting. What I don't get though is why do you need multiple officers on top of him if he's already handcuffed?
Wasn't he already handcuffed? So why not just sit there and wait for the paramedics? Why kneel on him? Were they worried he'd run away? Were his legs shackled? Why didn't they shackle his legs? Is that police protocol.
I mean I thought the cop was 100% evil monster but after reading your post I think he was just a prick who didn't really view the people he was arresting as real humans.
The part being ignored, of course, is the toxicology. A 46 year old man with coronary disease mixing meth and fent engaging in extremely dangerous behavior. Meth is a stimulant and fent is a downer, and when you mix them, they don't "even out," although that's the belief many users have when mixing them - usually to come down of a meth high using fent.
The problem is that the parts of your system high on the meth remain meth'ed up, and the fent reduces your body's ability to handle the meth. People OD like this all the time. Floyd was a time bomb behaving like this in his condition. Anyone over 40 using either drug is playing with fire, even if healthy (and Floyd was NOT healthy).
ex-runner wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/us/george-floyd-new-video-officers-kneel-trnd/index.htmlCatch it with the Kodak Disc wrote:
Can you post a photo or video of three police officers on his back?
Thanks for sharing. Looks like one on his back, one on his lower legs, and one on his neck.
Umm noooo wrote:
The Initial Autopsy said he died from a heart attack and he had enough fentanyl in his system to kill a small horse....
That 'independent' autopsy was done by Floyd's family and the medical examiner HASN'T SEEN THE BODY! Just did it from the video we've all seen. Beyond ridiculous.
Source?
ex-runner wrote:
I looked up your 'excited delirium'.
Aside from the fact that you have provided a medical diagnosis by looking at a man which was pinned face down on the floor and nothing else, the risk of death is apparently less than 10%. Not 66%
If 66% of people with excited delirium are dying in police custody then maybe the police are doing something severely wrong to raise the risk of death by 500%...
Do people here seriously believe this guy died of taking drugs or coronavirus?!
I did not provide the medical diagnosis. The police men did. Lane said: "Should we turn him to the side, because of excited delirium?" Then Chauvin said: "No, that's why we have him on the stomach. Stay put."
So they thought it's excited delirium and used the procedures/protocol they learned for it to restrain a target and wait for the meds/EMT to arrive.
I know the media and 300 million people believe it was planned murder, but there are just so many facts against murder.
-How did they arrange for Floyd to be there and commit a crime (paying a $20 fake bill), then stay in the car refusing to return the cigarettes to the shop owner and sitting in the car for 10 minutes until police arrives?
-How did they arrange for Floyd to resist arrest (getting in the car) for 5-6 minutes so it looks like excited delirium and the protocol tells them to use this position?
-Why did they all look like it was a standard procedure, following protocol? Chauvin worked for 20 years in the police, and the one time he decides to murder someone he manages to stay calm like in any other case? I would assume if someone is about to murder someone and KNOWS he is doing it he would get incredibly nervous.
-Why did Lane suggest turning him to the side, if they planned the murder as 4 people?
-Why do it in front of multiple people recording it? Why would he give up his existence and family to intentionally kill someone in front of an audience?
To me it's much more likely the result of a tragic death due to improperly trained officers doing dangerous moves that they learned in the academy. Yes Floyd was on heavy drugs, and had heart diseases, but I believe he could have been saved by different police procedures. It was really the combination of 3 factors - drugs/alcohol, heart diseases (also his heart was bigger than the upper end of the scale for a person his size), and the forceful restraint by the 3 officers.
Nonayme wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
I looked up your 'excited delirium'.
Aside from the fact that you have provided a medical diagnosis by looking at a man which was pinned face down on the floor and nothing else, the risk of death is apparently less than 10%. Not 66%
If 66% of people with excited delirium are dying in police custody then maybe the police are doing something severely wrong to raise the risk of death by 500%...
Do people here seriously believe this guy died of taking drugs or coronavirus?!
I did not provide the medical diagnosis. The police men did. Lane said: "Should we turn him to the side, because of excited delirium?" Then Chauvin said: "No, that's why we have him on the stomach. Stay put."
So they thought it's excited delirium and used the procedures/protocol they learned for it to restrain a target and wait for the meds/EMT to arrive.
I know the media and 300 million people believe it was planned murder, but there are just so many facts against murder.
-How did they arrange for Floyd to be there and commit a crime (paying a $20 fake bill), then stay in the car refusing to return the cigarettes to the shop owner and sitting in the car for 10 minutes until police arrives?
-How did they arrange for Floyd to resist arrest (getting in the car) for 5-6 minutes so it looks like excited delirium and the protocol tells them to use this position?
-Why did they all look like it was a standard procedure, following protocol? Chauvin worked for 20 years in the police, and the one time he decides to murder someone he manages to stay calm like in any other case? I would assume if someone is about to murder someone and KNOWS he is doing it he would get incredibly nervous.
-Why did Lane suggest turning him to the side, if they planned the murder as 4 people?
-Why do it in front of multiple people recording it? Why would he give up his existence and family to intentionally kill someone in front of an audience?
To me it's much more likely the result of a tragic death due to improperly trained officers doing dangerous moves that they learned in the academy. Yes Floyd was on heavy drugs, and had heart diseases, but I believe he could have been saved by different police procedures. It was really the combination of 3 factors - drugs/alcohol, heart diseases (also his heart was bigger than the upper end of the scale for a person his size), and the forceful restraint by the 3 officers.
I do not believe it to be planned murder.
I personally believe it to be a combination of frustration on the officers part due to the victim not complying. That lead to him wanting to deliberately hurt/cause the victim discomfort. Unfortunately that killed this man. That's 2nd degree in most states.
I also believe it is because the officer thought the victim is 'dangerous' which is partly is due to his size and partly due to subconscious racism. He believed that he wouldn't cause the victim mortal danger by kneeling on his neck for a long time, again probably due to subconscious racist assumptions.
The officers may not have been as rough with a white suspect. That's why people are protesting. Watch the videos going round of officers using disproportionate force with complying black suspects. Suspects with their hands up being kicked in the back or punched or beaten repeatedly after they are cuffed. Maybe he would have been just as rough, I don't know.
Policing in the US needs a complete rethink. It's is an old school "Sherrif" approach. Maximum force 100% of the time. Focus should be on working with communities and de-escalating situations.
ex-runner wrote:
[quote]Nonayme wrote:
[quote]ex-runner wrote:
Definitely. That police hold being carried out in the image is exactly like the one that killed George Floyd. Perfect.
There are 4 officers there. In your image they have one holding each limb. In reality we had three on his back which makes it difficult to get air into the lungs and one with a knee on his neck cutting blood supply to the brain. Trying to save him my arse.
Let me say it again. The independent autopsy said he died of asphyxiation.
The point of the picture wasn't to show exactly the same technique, but that the police is trained to restrain subjects who have excited delirium. There are many pictures of the exact same restraint (knee on neck, allowed by MN police manual) used:
Straight out of Israel.
https://peoplesworld.org/article/israeli-forces-trained-cops-in-restraint-techniques-at-minneapolis-conference/Prepare for riots, I guess, because 3rd-degree murder carries a max sentence of 25 years.
