Sub3 to Sub5 at 30yo

Take out one of the interval workouts and keep the long run. Make the long run around 10-12 depending on feel. As you get closer to race day replace the tempo with some shorter intervals like you have there (200s).

Otherwise looks good.

Take out the part where you gain 25 pounds each winter. From here on out, losing those pounds gets a lot harder each year.

Sub-5 is loads easier than sub-3.

I ran my first sub-5 within 12 months of starting running. It took me 12 years to break 3:00.

I’m 35 now. I can break 5:00 with two months training at any time. Sub-3:00 would likely take me a 6 month buildup.

Concur with DC runner- keep it two workouts + long run per week, but break your training up into periods where you switch between different types of workouts (tempo + long intervals vs short intervals). Breaking the summer up into six week chunks will also keep you from getting bored with doing the same sequence of runs for sixteen weeks until your time trial in September.

Some strides three days a week would also be a good idea if you're not already doing that.

Thanks, makes sense.

I'll remove one workout day, and replace it with one easy day with strides.

Jeff Albertson wrote:

Sub-5 is loads easier than sub-3.

I ran my first sub-5 within 12 months of starting running. It took me 12 years to break 3:00.

I’m 35 now. I can break 5:00 with two months training at any time. Sub-3:00 would likely take me a 6 month buildup.

That's wrong, the equivalent performance of a 3 hour marathon is a 5:30 mile (Daniels, Tinman calculators). Runners can train hard and long enough to run a sub 3 marathon even without god-given running talent, but if the VO2MAX isn't at least ~60 (which is already high for general population), someone can never run a sub 5 mile, no matter how much he trains and how much speed work he does.

You think a 5 min mile is easier because most people with above-average VO2MAX self-select themselves into running and can run a 5 min mile without training much (due to their VO2MAX being in the 60s-70s), and still need to train and do some long runs before being able to break 3 in the marathon. Lots of HS kids can run sub 5 miles off low lifetime mileage, say 500-1000 miles, but they can't run a sub 3 marathon. But later on, they train for sub 2:30 and can also run that.

The general population with low VO2MAX has no hope of ever running a sub 5 mile, but with 5000-10000+ lifetime miles and lots of 16+ mile long runs can run sub 3 even without any talent for running.

This statement is highly dependent on context. For OP, sub 3 is definitely easier than sub 5 as evidenced by his results. Speaking as a fellow 30 year old, 75 second quarters feel like a sprint at this point in my life. In high school I ran 4:30. Getting old sucks.

I have read all the books, seen all the calculators.

If you asked me what was easier, running a single mile in 5:30 or running 26.2 miles in a row at 6:53, I’d say the 5:30 by a long shot.

Think of it this way:

4 laps around a track in 1:22 seconds each?

105 laps around a track in 1:43 each?

That marathon is way tougher.

Daniels, Tinman, and other coaches use their calculators not as equivalent performances, but guidelines for providing pace approximations for workouts to their various zones.

FWIW, the IAAF scoring tables have a 5:00 mile equivalent to a 2:57:51.

A 5:30 is equivalent to a 3:19:20 on the same tables.

Update after a few weeks. Took the advice of the people in this thread mentioning doing only 2 workouts per week + a long run.

Alternating those workout with the following :

- 3-4 miles tempo

- 300m & 200m hills

- 200m & 400m intervals on the track.

- Will maybe add 600 and 800m on the track but a bit later on

Been averaging a little over 40MPW - looking to bump that to 50MPW at least this summer. Long run is about 12 miles at the moment.

Last main workout have been :

- 5K at tempo around 6'30

- 6x400 and 2x200 on the track (400s : 75s 74s 74s 77s 80s 79s - average 76.5s with a 80s rest. Collapsed pretty hard on the last 200m on the last 2 repeats) (200s : 34 and 32). Any thoughts on these?

Will try to time trial all the shorter distances along the way, with the "goals" of going :

400m : 59s

800m : 2:19

1K : 2:59

Main goal by far is still the 4:59 mile

Side question - how much time do I "lose" by running a time trial mile with normal running shoes on, and being alone obviously (vs in spikes and in a race)? Is it something like 2s or can it be significant like 8 or 9 seconds total?

Still pretty far off but as mentioned in the OP I have a lot of running fitness to get back after the winter, several pounds to lose etc.

Looks pretty good so far. Plan is solid - as you said, I would start boosting your mileage to 50 mpw and get the repeat 800s going soon. Think you will be able to get there!

You could also double some, just add 2-4 miles easy 2-3x per week, I've found that helps me get the lead out in the mornings if I wake up really sore.

Regarding the 600 & 800m repeats, how many should I do, what pace and what rest?

6x800 in 2:45 with 3min standing rest? Faster?

Note that I must be quite far from 4:59 shape right now.

DC runner 2 wrote:

Take out one of the interval workouts and keep the long run.

That's the opposite of what you should do. Intervals are the key, tempos are mostly unimportant and the long runs are completely unnecessary for this goal

Hardloper wrote:

DC runner 2 wrote:

Take out one of the interval workouts and keep the long run.

That's the opposite of what you should do. Intervals are the key, tempos are mostly unimportant and the long runs are completely unnecessary for this goal

At this point, around 10 weeks out from goal race, i think you are correct. I would keep at least something like an 8 mile "long run" and I also think you can still fit in a reasonably paced tempo workout every other week. A 3 or 4 mile tempo at 45 seconds slower than 5k pace should cause little disruption in getting the speed workouts in.

I'd give maybe a week or two with 800s at this point as well. And then mostly everything between 150s and 600s. Short all out 8 second hill sprints for power, as well. Or flying 30s if you have already laid the groundwork for all out speed.

Flats or spikes will make a difference. I would say somewhere in the 4-8 seconds per mile range. But that depends a lot on the differences between your training shoes and flats. Spikes are a different thing altogether. You need to give your body time to adapt to wearing them.

Bittertown wrote:

Side question - how much time do I "lose" by running a time trial mile with normal running shoes on, and being alone obviously (vs in spikes and in a race)? Is it something like 2s or can it be significant like 8 or 9 seconds total?

Bullet the Blue Sky wrote:

Flats or spikes will make a difference. I would say somewhere in the 4-8 seconds per mile range. But that depends a lot on the differences between your training shoes and flats.

Spikes are a different thing altogether. You need to give your body time to adapt to wearing them.

Thanks. Only "fast"shoes I have right now are Pegasus Turbo and Zoom Fly Flyknit.

Might have to invest in flats or spikes if the difference is that big...

Will try 200m repeats tomorrow. Any help on what I should do?

Was thinking 12x200 @35s with 200m jog (about 90s) rest

Bittertown wrote:

Last main workout have been :

- 5K at tempo around 6'30

- 6x400 and 2x200 on the track (400s : 75s 74s 74s 77s 80s 79s - average 76.5s with a 80s rest. Collapsed pretty hard on the last 200m on the last 2 repeats) (200s : 34 and 32). Any thoughts on these?

3 weeks later I did similar workouts :

- 5K tempo at 6'20 average

- 7x400 (71, 70, 73, 73, 74, 74, 77 - average of 73s with a 105s rest)

Will try a 400m time trial next week, hoping for sub60 - any tips on how to warm up for this?

sub 60 is a good benchmark for sub 5. the feel of an all-out 400 is also VERY different from mile pace and a good long progressive warmup is needed. i usually do some dynamic warmups (eg leg swings, ankle rolls), 1.25-1.5 mile warmup, cutting down close to tempo pace, followed by some drills/strides to really get rolling. this all can take 30-40 minutes.

if you haven't at least pushed yourself to a sub-30 200m during your other workouts, then don't be surprised if you completely fall off somewhere past 250 and end up collapsed and seeing God. good luck!