Sara Hall advocates high mileage and intensity in HS- holds up Big 3 as examples

SPOT ON!!

I'm curious about Evan Jager's development. This guy is a true world class runner. Anyone know what is training was like in H.S.? He obviously did something right.

SPOT ON!!!

In middle school and high school, racing should be the priority with the training filling in around it. Kids love to compete...not train. Once they've established the basic building blocks of endurance both physically and mentally over the span of a few years this model transitions to structuring racing around training. Ideally, at this point the athlete begins to understand and enjoy the process of training thus increasing it accordingly and not be discouraged. They understand the process of "Good Days" and "Bad Days" and also how to deal with setbacks.

"Go Run One"

Never ran more than 40 miles a week in highschool; sub-9 2 miler

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20782463/hs-profile-evan-jager/

crete runner wrote:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SaraHall3/status/1263147909534507008

““The Big 3” all ran high mileage and aggressive workouts in high school and all went on to have long, legendary pro careers.

You can’t have the Big 3 if you put an ambiguous low mileage cap on motivated, capable high school runners that want to train more.“

Is aggressive mileage the key that today’s weaklings lack? Discus.

BULLSH*T

It's all very individual. I ran 40 miles a week my very first week of running.

Had i never run more than 40mi a week I probably would never have broke 10:00.

Alan

Very True. I was simply marveling at his talent. Same with Grant Fisher. Now...Jakob Ingrebrigsten is a different story completely.

AFIK, Manzano, Centrowitz, Jager, Murphy, and Brazier all trained below 60 miles a week in high school. Brazier and Murphy were more like 35 / wk from what I’ve read. They all have Olympic or World medals at the senior level. None of the “Big 3” have that.

For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure Shorter and Rodgers trained modestly in high school. Few would deny that high mileage is necessary for success at the senior world class level in the 5k and above. However, there is little evidence that high mileage as a teenager is predictive or necessary for high level success at the senior level.

My question for advocates of high mileage in high school is to what end? A state championship, a scholarship, a US junior record? None of these accolades are worth the risk of serious future injury or burnout. I can’t say that Ritz’s hs training and approach to racing caused his battles with injury as an adult. However, I’m sure he would trade his junior world Xc medal in a heartbeat for a senior world/ Olympic medal. ( I don’t think his medal in the half-marathon”world championships rates with a main event medal or even a world xc podium)

If I were the coach of an obviously gifted mid-d or distance runner, I would encourage him to keep his mileage below 60 miles a week. A runner with pace control, decent speed and a baseline Vo2 max above 70 will have a very successful hs career off of moderate mileage. If he doesn’t have pace control, decent speed or high baseline Vo2 max all the mileage in the world won’t make any difference.

Once an Achilles is strained, bone density deficiencies, or race skittishness develop in a young runner, it is extremely difficult to right the ship. Don’t ruin a young athletes future career before they have matured and can make training decisions on their own.

#1 - Learn how to read. I said they can barely break 60. That would be 57-59 range.

#2 - Seriously learn how to read. I said those types of athletes exist, I never said they are everywhere. You confirm yourself that those athletes exist "there is almost no one....who cannot break 60". So you admit some CANNOT - which was my point. Now if you go off of the 57-59 range that I was talking about, the number would be a little higher.

#3 - A 9:10/4:20 (HS times) runner is going to get spanked by just about every 4:12-4:15 (HS time) runner in college if that 4:12 guy is trained halfway decently.

All these slow twitch morons think you need to hit certain mileage in order to run certain times, but they are WRONG. Any HS boy talented enough to break 9:10 in the 3200 off of 80 miles per week could absolutely break 9:10 in the 3200 off 50-60 miles per week if they were trained smart. And as an added bonus they'd come away with a better 1600 PR too.

haha yes, Donavan brazier the former NOP runner who’s entire organization was shut down for doping violations.

Also, DB did 40MPW in hs.

student of theory wrote:

"Kids these days"

*breaks all the old records*

No, they don't break ALL the records. They break records in events that are A) short; and B) often of made-up distances that are not considered events even by the America-centric T&FN. Look at their HS record list if you're under the impression that they consider 1600 and 3200 to be events. It's easier to break a record that hadn't been invented nor ever contested prior to the turn of the century.

The real point of this post is all the Brazier talk. He's great and will probably bring US records down even more. Runs pretty moderate mileage, as everyone points out. And as well he should, given his best events. Today's youth are indeed breaking records - at 800.

Perhaps I should mention (once again) a record that will never be broken: Boy's 10,000. However, a contradiction to my point was Lukas V. Broke records up to 5000. All in official distances recognized by WA (IAAF at the time). Never ran a 1600. Never ran a 3200. Never ran for his school's track team. Still, never anything special 10km or up. Ditto Brazier.

Low-mileage American training is great for mid-D. High mileage IS, in fact necessary for actual long-distance success. Canova schedules are easily available. You can even look up guys like Rodgers. Look what they did. Hint: it was NOT 40mpw. Why this being debated is beyond me.

Internationally, they didn't have a big impact. But I think domestically they had a huge impact. I mean, Ritz and Hall were 2:06/2:07 guys. Webb was a 3:46 miler. I would argue they caused a second running boom and at least in the US, they were beasts. Other than them and Rupp, the only other 2:07 or faster guys are naturalized runners. So they act as a sort of ideal for Americans to hold themselves to.

Not East Africans wrote:

Webb’s flame burned out quick

Ritz was injury prone and only ran world class times under shady sal

Hall moved to thon training very quickly and responded to less intense workouts with more tempos. However he became very inconsistent late in his career that ended earlier then it really should of.

The problem with high school is not the training but the racing schedule. 2-3 races every week? It’s just stupidity and if you’re trying to run higher mileage or add hard workouts you will burn out quick.

I totally agree. I have had the opportunity to coach High School for some time and have had success with helping runners get to Division 1 colleges, the important thing for us was to limit their races. I ran cross for and modeled my coaching after Oklahoma State and Dave Smith. We would train with intensity and mileage, but run only 4 races prior to the postseason. I found this approach to work well in high school. Even in terms of track, I would limit the amounts of 2 mile races throughout the season, and our focus would Be on mileage/intensity and we had great results. Great observation by you!!!

My college roommate (Kenyan) was a 2:08:xx guy when the marathon world record was 2:06:50. He ran more mileage than anyone I ever heard of. Mostly just modest pace like 6:00, but 2-3 hours a day so about 150-200 miles a week. He absolutely never ran intervals or touched a track.

No fartleks, no tempos, nothing. I think his 1500 time was around 4:00. He would often run up and down a hill for an hour or two. Not hill sprints or intervals, just 6:00 pace up and down a hill.

Everyone used to tell him "what he was doing wrong".

He was the guy who ran 2:08 and all his advisers sucked at running.

Obviously he would not have been highly successful at track (I think he ran 28:30 or so, which was not bad in the US back then, but nowhere near his potential if he trained for track). He had his sights on the marathon from day one and he trained like it.

Nick Willis ran low mileage in HS and made time for other sports. He had a longer career with better PRs than any of the "Big 3". Oh, and got two Olympic medals.

The Big 3 are more a cautionary "what could have been" tale than a story of successful use of talent.

I assume you were being facetious, but Willis absolutely does not have better PRs than the "any of the Big 3."

Webb was faster over 800m, mile, two mile, and 5000m outdoors.

Ritz and Hall were faster over two miles and 5000m outdoors.

But I do agree with your general point that low mileage in high school may have saved Webb, Hall, and Ritz from early burnout

JamesTheAmateur wrote:

I assume you were being facetious, but Willis absolutely does not have better PRs than the "any of the Big 3."

Webb was faster over 800m, mile, two mile, and 5000m outdoors.

Ritz and Hall were faster over two miles and 5000m outdoors.

But I do agree with your general point that low mileage in high school may have saved Webb, Hall, and Ritz from early burnout

Willis has run nearly a full second faster than Webb in the 1500. 3:29.66 to 3:30.54. Willis' 1500 time is better than Webb's converted mile time. Willis is also faster over 3k. Nobody runs 2 mile.

That was an exaggeration, and was in response to some guy saying kids these days have no idea how to work. I was pointing out the ridiculous amount of fast kids in the 2020 class, and saying obviously they've done something right.