(Road Racing and) Time Trialing and Training Thread - Week Ending 5/17/20

Easy/ Moderate/ Long runs... Nike Structures ?

Marathon -> LT... Nike 0% (ie. zoom fly)

10k -> Speed/ TT’s/ Races... Nike 4%

Need to find an alternate shoe for 10k-speed work. Might just use the zoom flys. Gotta salvage those 4%’s!

brakz - I know your talent level pretty well because your PRs are pretty comparable to Mrs. Stone’s. Congrats on the weekly mileage high and your recent 20 mile race performance. That would surely seem to place you in that 3:25-3:30 marathon window.

As a coach, I don’t try to make too much out of a single week’s snapshot of training. But my first reaction on seeing the week you just posted is that you pack in an awful lot of quality in that week and not enough easy recovery.

Monday is a moderate (not easy) 10 miler. Tuesday is 25:00 worth of 5k work off very little recovery. To me that workout is unfathomable. I like the recovery pace of your short Wednesday run, but then Thursday is back to an MP tempo. That’s 3 quality sessions in 4 days.

The recovery pace for your main run on Friday is good but then you throw in a HMP mile in there pacing your friend. Sunday’s progressive long run is also moderate.

If your goal is to crack 20 minutes in a 5K, your Tuesday workout would seem to indicate that you have the speed already to do it. You’re just leaving all of your race performance in your daily runs/workouts. There’s just too many days with quality and not enough days with true recovery running (9:15-10:15/mile).

I would advise slowing your easy runs down (regardless of what your other friends are doing), sticking to one or two quality runs a week, with a focus on some pace work at and around 5k through pace work at and around MP. While the focus is 5k training, a weekly long run in the 10-14 mile range is sufficient.

Best of luck on hitting your goal.

Me: 15 female PR's 19:00/5k 10:42/3k 4:57/1500

M: 2 miles super easy

T: 12 min out, came back same way in 11 min 6.2km total including warmups and cooldowns so about 3.9 miles.

W: easy 3

T: Workout: 800 warmup, 3x 5 mins w 3-4 min rest in between each. Made approximately to 1350 metres each time. 400 cooldown. Total about 3.4 miles

F: easy 3

S: rest day

S: 5k TT day. 19:25 pretty good but not a PR.

total miles: 19.5

How you doin?!

I like the tempos more than Boston as I found the Boston narrow in the forefoot.

Lol!

brakz - You are probably pretty close to it, try doing 21min @ 7:00pace a few times instead of your Marathon pace workout and I'd bet you can get it. Stone is going to have a pretty good idea but I would say that your easy runs are ok pace-wise, maybe monday and friday evening could have been 15-20s/mi slower. 3 quality sessions (5k pace, MP, and hill reps) is quite taxing. I'd ditch the hill reps and just replace them with hill sprints (15s) or only do the hill reps once a month.

Cathy loves to run 15 - maybe add some strides in there 2-3 times a week

As someone similar to brakz in terms of fitness, I think he could do three workouts. I've been on the Australian complex method for the past month and haven't felt excessively beaten up/worn down from it. But I do a 3 mile tempo, Deek's quarters, and hills on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays. And just from a month I've gained a lot of fitness and strength. So I think either the standard Aussie model or your recommendations would be good. However, he would need to slow down his easy days for sure. I'm closer to 9 on my easy days, which might be too easy, but like you said, at least 15 - 20 sec/mile slower. And add strides. Those are key to helping to speed up since they help you become more effect.

For Cathy, I agree with adding strides. And if you can, add some mileage. You'll gain a huge amount of fitness just from bumping from ~20 to ~30 miles a week. Similarly, longer runs but over fewer days can help a lot as well. You'll get a bigger bang for your buck for a 4 mile run than 2 2 mile runs

I should clarify, I have had some naggles here and there, but I attribute that to a consistent running week (a consistent ~50 instead of an inconsistent 30 - 40) and from needing some new shoes as two of my pairs have 500+ miles on them and I'm not exactly lightweight at the moment

Working Harder wrote:

What's everyone using for more of a daily trainer? I'm looking to ad something and had considered going with the Peg 37. Currently I'm in Turbo 2s for most daily work, Zoom Fly 3 for some stuff, Next % which just occupy space in the closet, and Peg 36 trail for off road. Apparently I drank the Nike Koolaid last year.

Adidas Boston 8. Really good, solid shoes.

Thanks for the responses Stone Cutter, RunnerSam, JamesTheAmateur.

I'll try and go a bit slower this week on my easy days. I think that's happened naturally because I was fairly tired from last week.

Tbh, like you said, I was meant to be slower on Monday and Friday had that random mile thrown in. And Thursday was meant to be @7:50 but I settled into 7:40s too easily and found it hard to slow down.

That being said, I don't think I find running at 9:30 min/mile very easy for my gait so will have to adjust. Will try today (helped by the 25 mph wind) :p.

(I trained sprints in high school and tbh have already found moving to 5K and above difficult).

brakz - To be clear, I don’t advise training slow as an end of itself, or to force you to feel mechanically clunky. But it is very common for many runners (beginners especially, females especially) to get in a habit of training fast daily. It’s almost like they don’t know how to relax their bodies enough to appreciate and enjoy recovery pace. Or you fall victim to the comparison game and compare every “easy” mile against your past easy miles or your friends’ easy miles, and almost keep an unwritten scorecard in your mind of what “easy pace” SHOULD be. There is certainly nothing wrong with training “by feel” - Mrs. Stone and I are both doing that now, as does another female poster on this thread, darkwave.

But I would for the short term try to focus on relaxing your body while keeping your form, and train yourself to appreciate how that 9:15-9:30 pace “feels.” Because that’s roughly how easy you want those easy miles to feel. I think two quality workouts and one slightly more moderate day a week is more than plenty quality to keep you fit.

And based on that Tuesday workout and your mile TT (5:57), I think you already have the requisite speed to take aim at 20:00.

Really helpful, thanks for taking the time :). Will update in the next thread but already feel better after running a bit easier yesterday.

Working Harder wrote:

What's everyone using for more of a daily trainer? I'm looking to ad something and had considered going with the Peg 37. Currently I'm in Turbo 2s for most daily work, Zoom Fly 3 for some stuff, Next % which just occupy space in the closet, and Peg 36 trail for off road. Apparently I drank the Nike Koolaid last year.

Late on the shoes thing, but I've got:

Base mileage - Infinity Reacts and Vomeros (they also can handle hill sprints etc)

Tempo/Faster Stuff - Zoom Fly 3 (rarely used right now)

Technical Trails (Slow) - Speedgoat 3 (also my "holy crap my legs are dead" shoe)

Trails (Fast) - Salomon S-Lab Sense 7 (?) - Got these on a huge discount, they're actually super versatile and I often use them for fast stuff on mixed surface (dirt roads etc).

Infinity React is the best trainer I've had in years, although I have to get about 20mi in them before they feel good and broken in. There was a time when every bit of my running was in Lunaracers, my all time favorite shoe.

I own more shoes than these that I will occasionally throw in the mix (Zoomfly, Adidas Tempo, Vaporfly, etc), but my three go-to pairs right now are:

Adios 4 - HMP and faster

Boston 9 - HMP to easy

Vomero 14 - Easy/Recovery

Ah shoes, one of my favorite pastimes. It's almost a game now to see how much I can tick off the Mrs by getting another pair. FWIW...

Daily Trainer - Reebok Floatride Energy - Great shoe. Can consistently get a pair for $60 or less (always a code on Reebok's site)

Tempo - Reebok Floatride Energy, Nike Zoom Fly FK, Nike Zoom Fly 3

Race - Vaporfly Next%

Pretty much my rotation right now. The Floatride Energy is a great shoe IMO and best value I can find on the market right now. I used to be a Peg guy, but they seem so harsh of a ride now. The Reebok is light, and versatile as I do tend to just train in them up through tempo paces. I have 4 pairs in rotation right now... ridiculous.

I just bought a pair of Sketchers Go Run Razor 3 Hypers... I'm in the process of breaking them in. I have this spot on the pad of my pinky toe that has a built up callous. I need the shoe to break in a bit and divot in the insole so I can comfortably run in them. I also have the Adios 4 and an old Boston 6 that I throw on every now and then, but i'm not in love with those... not sure why. Finally, I have a Brooks Ghost 11 GTX pair for cold weather running. They have been AMAZING in the winter to keep feet warm and dry.

I could go on... but I won't.

Ended up picking up a pair of Pegasus 37s last night. Headed straight out for an easy 11 miler afterward and immediately fell in love with them. Compared to previous generations they are a bit more softer/cushioned But don’t go so far as feeling like mush. Pretty much changed the one thing I always wish pegs had which was to be a little softer.

WorkingHarder wrote:

Pretty much changed the one thing I always wish pegs had which was to be a little softer.

Well this sounds promising... I can tell you right now though... I'm not paying full price, or even 25% list of the Pegs... $120 for a pair of everyday trainers (even $90 is salty IMO). Reeboks right now... with code MDW... $62.

I'm cheap though... so there is that. It's also funny... I can justify $250 for a pair I wear just on race day, but my mind won't let me pay less than have of that for a pair I wear EVERY day... my brain is a funny thing...

The Stone Cutter wrote:

brakz - To be clear, I don’t advise training slow as an end of itself, or to force you to feel mechanically clunky. But it is very common for many runners (beginners especially, females especially) to get in a habit of training fast daily. It’s almost like they don’t know how to relax their bodies enough to appreciate and enjoy recovery pace. Or you fall victim to the comparison game and compare every “easy” mile against your past easy miles or your friends’ easy miles, and almost keep an unwritten scorecard in your mind of what “easy pace” SHOULD be

A lot of good points already, including these.

I think different people have different easy paces, but I think the comparison game is also a big part of it. People get this idea of what their easy pace "should be", but easy pace is actually easy effort, not easy pace. And I see a fair bit of positive correlation between people with faster easy paces and people who regularly are disappointed in their race performances.

I also think that running with good form at a slow pace/very easy effort is a skill, and an important one to have. Think of it as a form drill. If you can hold yourself together with good form at the very bottom end of your paces, then you should also find it easier to keep your form solid when at the very top of your paces.

Good runners have a lot of range. Underperformers have substantially less. When running in a group on an easy day, I regularly get dropped by women my age who can't possibly run 9:15 or 9:30 pace - it's just too slow for them. These are the same women who struggle to hold 8:00 pace for the marathon distance, and I believe there's a correlation.

RunnerSam wrote:

brakz - You are probably pretty close to it, try doing 21min @ 7:00pace a few times instead of your Marathon pace workout and I'd bet you can get it. Stone is going to have a pretty good idea but I would say that your easy runs are ok pace-wise, maybe monday and friday evening could have been 15-20s/mi slower. 3 quality sessions (5k pace, MP, and hill reps) is quite taxing. I'd ditch the hill reps and just replace them with hill sprints (15s) or only do the hill reps once a month.

Really good advice here, IMHO.

Only thing I would add is that I don't like the 5x5 minutes at 6:40 (your 5K pace) with 1 minute walking recovery. 5 minutes is a long time to be holding 5K pace, and 1 minute is an awfully short recovery. Add in the walking instead of jogging for the recovery, and this workout just works the wrong systems for what you are trying to accomplish.

I would change this to 5x4 minutes at 6:40 pace with 3:00 jogging (not walking, jogging) recovery. Or 6x3:20 at 6:40 pace with 2:30 jogging recovery.

I know those look like easier versions of the workout you are doing, but I suspect you may find them more challenging once you try them. And they will also make the workout more aerobic and beneficial to the 5K distance that you are targeting.