Run faster and completely ignore heart rate, until you are at a reasonable fitness you have to suffer a little. It will get better, and just be extra aware of potential injuries.
Run faster and completely ignore heart rate, until you are at a reasonable fitness you have to suffer a little. It will get better, and just be extra aware of potential injuries.
Ruppfor wrote:
Run faster and completely ignore heart rate, until you are at a reasonable fitness you have to suffer a little. It will get better, and just be extra aware of potential injuries.
I have been doing that for the past month, and I still see literally zero increase in fitness.
Ruppfor wrote:
Run faster and completely ignore heart rate, until you are at a reasonable fitness you have to suffer a little. It will get better, and just be extra aware of potential injuries.
I don't how much more I have to run until I get to a reasonable fitness. It shouldn't take months.
Dont focus on your easy paces too much. Run with just a stopwatch or something if you have to. I run 10 minute pace sometimes and I can run Sub 18 in the 5k
timothy y wrote:
Dont focus on your easy paces too much. Run with just a stopwatch or something if you have to. I run 10 minute pace sometimes and I can run Sub 18 in the 5k
I already do that, but I still feel like I am running too hard as it feels like I am going into threshold territory. I can't run easy at all unless I just walk.
There is no such thing as running at an easy pace for a lot of people because they aren’t fit enough to easily run. Their easy pace is a walking pace. Until you are fit enough that you can run at an 8:00 min./mi. pace easily, you don’t need to worry about easy pace.
Go out and run at a moderately difficult pace for 3-4 miles, 3 days a week. On the other days, just do something active. You’ll get faster and after a couple months there might be a pace that you can run easily at.
elvid32 wrote:
There is no such thing as running at an easy pace for a lot of people because they aren’t fit enough to easily run. Their easy pace is a walking pace. Until you are fit enough that you can run at an 8:00 min./mi. pace easily, you don’t need to worry about easy pace.
Go out and run at a moderately difficult pace for 3-4 miles, 3 days a week. On the other days, just do something active. You’ll get faster and after a couple months there might be a pace that you can run easily at.
So how do high school XC coaches deal with new kids? Do they just make them run hard on every run?
So how do high school XC coaches deal with new kids? Do they just make them run hard on every run?[/quote]
The point is just to forget about heart rate, it doesn't matter until you actually have a decent amount of fitness. If you don't feel tired at the end of a run you're not doing it right, even if it is an easy run.
david45 wrote:
elvid32 wrote:
There is no such thing as running at an easy pace for a lot of people because they aren’t fit enough to easily run. Their easy pace is a walking pace. Until you are fit enough that you can run at an 8:00 min./mi. pace easily, you don’t need to worry about easy pace.
Go out and run at a moderately difficult pace for 3-4 miles, 3 days a week. On the other days, just do something active. You’ll get faster and after a couple months there might be a pace that you can run easily at.
So how do high school XC coaches deal with new kids? Do they just make them run hard on every run?
Sure. The coach makes the kids run. The kids run. It’s hard for some of the kids. That’s just the way it is.
elvid32 wrote:
david45 wrote:
So how do high school XC coaches deal with new kids? Do they just make them run hard on every run?
Sure. The coach makes the kids run. The kids run. It’s hard for some of the kids. That’s just the way it is.
People in the past told me to only run easy. If you run too hard, you will not improve.
david45 wrote:
elvid32 wrote:
Sure. The coach makes the kids run. The kids run. It’s hard for some of the kids. That’s just the way it is.
People in the past told me to only run easy. If you run too hard, you will not improve.
Who cares what they said?
Who cares what I said?
Did you try it?
Did it work?
Will you try something different?
Will you try consistently for a few months?
Does david45 even have free will?
Only one person can figure it out.
I thought you only ran 20 minutes a day 5 days a week for the last forever?
Your story of what you do changes so frequently.
If you're being true, you have no consistency or continuity.
If you're trolling, you suck.
david45 wrote:
elvid32 wrote:
Sure. The coach makes the kids run. The kids run. It’s hard for some of the kids. That’s just the way it is.
People in the past told me to only run easy. If you run too hard, you will not improve.
You're not improving already, might as well change something.
Covid jogger wrote:
david45 wrote:
People in the past told me to only run easy. If you run too hard, you will not improve.
You're not improving already, might as well change something.
Except running hard for easy runs goes against conventional wisdom
David, perhaps this will help;
I spent c 6 months doing the 'MAF,' / 70% HR max training this year and ended up being a jogger with a heart rate that got lower at slow speeds, but unable to run faster. Then I got injured trying to run faster.
I considered what had worked in the past, what went wrong in the past and where I was at that point in time. The conclusion that I came to was very much the same as the advice you are being given here, which is - for the time being - go out and run at a pace which is moderately hard and a distance from which you can recover to repeat the same effort (note same effort will not equal same pace on a daily basis) and do this for some weeks/ months and you absolutely will become fitter and stronger to the point that then easy runs will be at sensible pace, not a shuffle, and you will stronger to be able to start running workouts.
On switching to doing this a month ago, I have become progressively faster, stronger and fitter. I am not a fast runner, so runs around 8-8'30"min/ mile which initially were moderate are now becoming easy and I will keep this up until perhaps 7'30" or so is easy.
For ref, I am a lot older than you - nearly 50y - and just under 180lbs at 5'11" so that should also be encouraging for you.
The only thing that I can think of that may be troubling you is if your form is particularly bad leading to extreme inefficiency, injury/ discomfort etc. I can give you my experience in having overcome this if necessary, but for now I will note that the faster pace with moderate running where you start to actually run led to being able to use a natural, efficient gait as opposed to trying to fit form to keeping a pace low enough to hit HR targets. Consequently, the aches, pains and injuries have cleared up which would otherwise seem counterintuitive.
Also, running feels good again and while my distances are generally shorter for now, I run with good form and ever more spring and strength in my legs.
Give it a try for 1 month, there's a few people telling you the same thing!
david45 wrote:
Covid jogger wrote:
You're not improving already, might as well change something.
Except running hard for easy runs goes against conventional wisdom
Do this thought experiment:
Pretend you're a kid from 25-30 years ago. You don't have access to the internet, so you've never "Googled" anything about running. You're fairly normal, so you didn't go to the library and read any book about running or training. Even if you wanted to do that, there was less information availble.
Therefore you know no conventional wisdom.
Also, your coach is bad like a lot of coaches are, so he normally just coaches the football team but has to also coach the XC team and tells you to just run around. Also, your teammates don't know anything either. (Keep in mind that this is probably the realistic scenario for most runners.)
What would you do? You would go out each day and just run around. You would run as fast as you could. You would race your friends on a daily basis.
What would the outcome be? You would get pretty fast. Maybe you and your team would have optimal training and you would lose to a team that has a good coach, but you wouldn't be as slow as you are.
Some day you're either going to have to stop going so easy on yourself and run faster or you're going to have to just give up. Why don't you just spare us all and choose one of those two options?
nebraska2020 wrote:
David, perhaps this will help;
I spent c 6 months doing the 'MAF,' / 70% HR max training this year and ended up being a jogger with a heart rate that got lower at slow speeds, but unable to run faster. Then I got injured trying to run faster.
I considered what had worked in the past, what went wrong in the past and where I was at that point in time. The conclusion that I came to was very much the same as the advice you are being given here, which is - for the time being - go out and run at a pace which is moderately hard and a distance from which you can recover to repeat the same effort (note same effort will not equal same pace on a daily basis) and do this for some weeks/ months and you absolutely will become fitter and stronger to the point that then easy runs will be at sensible pace, not a shuffle, and you will stronger to be able to start running workouts.
On switching to doing this a month ago, I have become progressively faster, stronger and fitter. I am not a fast runner, so runs around 8-8'30"min/ mile which initially were moderate are now becoming easy and I will keep this up until perhaps 7'30" or so is easy.
For ref, I am a lot older than you - nearly 50y - and just under 180lbs at 5'11" so that should also be encouraging for you.
The only thing that I can think of that may be troubling you is if your form is particularly bad leading to extreme inefficiency, injury/ discomfort etc. I can give you my experience in having overcome this if necessary, but for now I will note that the faster pace with moderate running where you start to actually run led to being able to use a natural, efficient gait as opposed to trying to fit form to keeping a pace low enough to hit HR targets. Consequently, the aches, pains and injuries have cleared up which would otherwise seem counterintuitive.
Also, running feels good again and while my distances are generally shorter for now, I run with good form and ever more spring and strength in my legs.
Give it a try for 1 month, there's a few people telling you the same thing!
Should I run for the same time period everyday during the month? I will try doing that.
david45 wrote:
nebraska2020 wrote:
David, perhaps this will help;
I spent c 6 months doing the 'MAF,' / 70% HR max training this year and ended up being a jogger with a heart rate that got lower at slow speeds, but unable to run faster. Then I got injured trying to run faster.
I considered what had worked in the past, what went wrong in the past and where I was at that point in time. The conclusion that I came to was very much the same as the advice you are being given here, which is - for the time being - go out and run at a pace which is moderately hard and a distance from which you can recover to repeat the same effort (note same effort will not equal same pace on a daily basis) and do this for some weeks/ months and you absolutely will become fitter and stronger to the point that then easy runs will be at sensible pace, not a shuffle, and you will stronger to be able to start running workouts.
On switching to doing this a month ago, I have become progressively faster, stronger and fitter. I am not a fast runner, so runs around 8-8'30"min/ mile which initially were moderate are now becoming easy and I will keep this up until perhaps 7'30" or so is easy.
For ref, I am a lot older than you - nearly 50y - and just under 180lbs at 5'11" so that should also be encouraging for you.
The only thing that I can think of that may be troubling you is if your form is particularly bad leading to extreme inefficiency, injury/ discomfort etc. I can give you my experience in having overcome this if necessary, but for now I will note that the faster pace with moderate running where you start to actually run led to being able to use a natural, efficient gait as opposed to trying to fit form to keeping a pace low enough to hit HR targets. Consequently, the aches, pains and injuries have cleared up which would otherwise seem counterintuitive.
Also, running feels good again and while my distances are generally shorter for now, I run with good form and ever more spring and strength in my legs.
Give it a try for 1 month, there's a few people telling you the same thing!
Should I run for the same time period everyday during the month? I will try doing that.
Doesn't matter
david45 wrote:
Should I run for the same time period everyday during the month? I will try doing that.
Ditto, it doesn't matter. Key is to get out and run where you are working, so it requires some effort, concentration, but not so hard you can't repeat the effort and distance daily.
I use the same distance and as it becomes easier/ quicker all the time then just extend a little further. If you do go too hard one day, don't skip, but just back off a touch next day, but you'll work it out quickly. When you feel great, which starts to happen, don't go too hard either. Same effort. As you get stronger, start to include some hills. Don't stress about stuff, just get running and enjoy it. Like the other guys said, all the modern day paraphernalia and optimal training methods didn't exist that long ago, but there were great runners who simply got out and run. It's less stress and more enjoyable and at this stage of our running (I don't have a long established record of consistent running or performance), then running consistently with some effort and avoiding injury is going to yield results. I read a lot of Tinman's stuff which seems great, but even he acknowledged, citing a friend of his that ran national level, that just daily moderate running works well. I think his friend ran 1 hour a day, every day. Doing this I'm running 40-45mins a day, 6 days, looking to build to an hour as and when, but I'm enjoying far more than the 60-90min shuffling and getting faster/ stronger/ fitter rather than slow and brittle. Right now, it's what's needed.
I should add that it's an approach that I initially picked up from reading Sascha Pachev's forum where he recommends that one get s out and runs as above doing the same distance daily and then double the daily distance on the 6th day and forgetting about any structured training/ speedwork until you are running at least 8 miles a day, 6 days a week. Which using the 8min/ mile minimum target for 'easy' also equates to c 1 hour a day.
There's a lot of advocates on that forum for this working for them in building a strong foundation and they note that at 50-60 miles a week, 'wonderful things start to happen'.
So, don't stress. You're young, you can invest your time in building a solid foundation to enjoy a lifetime running. Don't put pressure on yourself, enjoy it, stay healthy and give it a shot.
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