Ernest wrote:
There's been a lot more then one commenter on this thread.
A good portion of posts aren't from Cleaver.
The fact that Arbery is a criminal isn't "speculation".
He is known to police - and convicted of a gun offence and shoplifting. Immediately prior to his death, he indisputably committed criminal trespass.
Cleaver is attempting to provide evidence, as likely will Defence for the McMichaels and Bryan, that Arbery stole or intended to steal from the construction site. Determination around that could be the difference between Arbery committing felony burglary and trespass - and could be the difference between justifiable Citizen's Arrest or an illegal detention, with culpability around subsequent events following from that assessment. So it's not unreasonable to seek clarity there.
The initial view I took was it was Arbery (1) wasn't just an innocent jogger randomly attacked and (2) racial motive is presumptive, and , most importantly, (3) it was rash and unnecessary to avance on and violently attack an armed person - and this decision is a precipitating factor leading to his death.
Some hold that Arbery was out of options and attacking an armed person, however slim those odds and high the risk, was the only recourse. Or, perhaps, other good options still existed - such as surrender, waiting for police, or continued evasion. Facts and video available don't show to me a trapped person facing imminent and inescapable threat of death - though I've seen that often stated here.
Let's also remember, there will be a civil action. The Arbery family has more than one lawyer. Presumably one is advancing a claim for damages in a wrongful death suit. As a trained barrister, you are aware in Tort law it's not uncommon to apportion any damages based on a ratio of estimated negligence between parties. It's not just criminality being determined, but liability - and that's not all-or-nothing.
As to "civilised disccourse", am not seeing a lot of that from ArmstrongLivs (and some others). Mostly just a stream of angry, judgmental, insulting vitriol without presentation of facts or rational argument.
Dozens of times throughout this thread you've maligned and railroaded me, Cleaver, and anyone holding a contrary view. In the last day alone, you likened Cleaver to a mass murderer and KKK Klansman.
This is attacking the person (and without basis), not the argument.
When posters suggested, even if jokingly, Cleaver and I should face the death penalty for having a different take on things - that is when I checked out of this thread for the second time.
And I do so again, having called much-needed attention to your illogic, poor behaviour, and hypocrisy.
There's not much actual "discussion" here.
Armstronglivs wrote:
We have had 80 pages of victim-blaming from one commenter, who has only one thing to say - and he says it again and again - that Arbery was a criminal who caused his own death. His killers therefore did not commit any crime. This view is based entirely on his speculations, not established fact, and without knowledge of the law. Said once, his opinion could simply be taken as the perception of someone who has no great understanding of what he is talking about, albeit inflected with a certain unacknowledged prejudice; repeated for 80 pages it is propaganda - specious, unproven and against what has so far been officially revealed. In the context of a case in which an unarmed African American was murdered by 3 white vigilantes - yes, they did kill him and they are facing charges of murder - it becomes an apology for an ugly crime with clearly racial overtones. It is no longer simply the expression of a point of view, and one that others might strongly differ with; it is an offensive tirade without end. It should not be debated, as that gives it a credence it should not have; it should be called for what it is; the toxic promotion of prejudice. It has no place in civilised discourse or in any inquiry about truth or justice.