More Kenyan Doping

what a massively good, yet somehow empty, thread this is. I haven't actually learned anything except what the Kenyans eat before and during races, but cripes, it even brought sprintgeezer back.

Seriously - I wish lrc were more like this more often.

So, with those native to altitude, blood volume can increase by approximately 25% with the proper training. For those born near sea-level, total hemoglobin can be increased about 30% relatively safely (14.0 ---> 18.2).

Your suggestion, Renato, is that those native to altitude, if boosting their hemoglobin in such a manner as using EPO would then have a corresponding drop in blood volume? And this would be a net difference that would in fact be detrimental to their performance?

One would think that even those native to altitude could get the 25% boost in blood volume and using a smaller amount of EPO than sea-level natives/dwellers, could increase their hemoglobin at least 10% or so without seeing a negative decrease in blood volume.

It's strange that we don't see the same thing among other endurance sports such as swimming, cycling, xc-skiing, etc.

It is easy to safely increase blood volume. Heck, every runner who ever trains in hot, humid conditions sees a massive increase in blood volume.

Mr. Sixty wrote:

So, with those native to altitude, blood volume can increase by approximately 25% with the proper training. For those born near sea-level, total hemoglobin can be increased about 30% relatively safely (14.0 ---> 18.2).

Your suggestion, Renato, is that those native to altitude, if boosting their hemoglobin in such a manner as using EPO would then have a corresponding drop in blood volume? And this would be a net difference that would in fact be detrimental to their performance?

One would think that even those native to altitude could get the 25% boost in blood volume and using a smaller amount of EPO than sea-level natives/dwellers, could increase their hemoglobin at least 10% or so without seeing a negative decrease in blood volume.

It's strange that we don't see the same thing among other endurance sports such as swimming, cycling, xc-skiing, etc.

Do you know some swimmer or cyclist or xc-skiers born, living and training in altitude ?

Cyclists train in altitude for short periods of the season, and, how I had opportunity to explain several times, have a type of performance completely different from running.

The differences ?

1. During a season, for a cyclist there are from 50 to 80 days of competition. For an athlete, a max of 15-20, and for a marathon runner no more than 5-6 (including 2 marathons).

2. For runners, there are no competitions with many following stages every day (as Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta de Espana, Tour de Suisse and many others). So, they don't need the same type of recovery a cyclist needs.

3. During a race of bikes, the speed is not even, but there are several accelerations, alternated with period of practical rest. At 40 km/h of speed, in group, a cyclist with good technique can stay comfortable at a level of 90-100 pulse heart per minute (such as a top athletes jogging at 10' per mile). When there is a mountain, or the cyclist tries to escape, there are accelerations so hard that the heart can reach max level, and the lactate can go around 15 mml or higher. So, a cyclist is physiologically more similar a specialist of 800m than a marathon runner.

4. During a marathon, also tactic, the level of effort is almost the same for all the duration of the race. This means we don't need very high aerobic power, but the ability to use a high percentage of it.

5. For increasing the speed if you are a cyclist, you need to be able to push a gear with 1-2 teeth more maintaining the same frequency, so the most important thing is TO INCREASE THE MUSCLE STRENGTH. For this reason, about doping, looking at some "aid" for enhancing the performances, GH and steroids are more important than EPO, that can be considered the base for being able to use more strength (look at the cocktail used by Armstrong).

6. For increasing the speed if you are a marathon runner, you don't need to increase your muscle strength, but your "strength endurance". This is more a enzymatic factor than a mechanical factor.

7. In some specific stage in the big Tours, a cyclist has a type of effort lasting 6-7 hours, where he can go 5-6 times from altitude of 200m / 600 feet to another of 2300m / 7000 feet. This provokes during the same race big jumps in the concentration of hgb and difference in hct.

Runners never have to face a similar problem.

8. A cyclist can eat during the race, because being sat his stomach doesn't have any "up and down" provoking reflux and acidity like happens running. A runner can only drink.

About swimmers, they never can reach the same level of heart beats we can reach running. This is due to the fact there is no gravity to win, the best technique is the ability in "sliding on the water", and lactate can be removed very quickly because of osmosis (the body is inside water). The demonstration of this is the possibility to compete at top level (sometimes to better WR, looking at Phelps and Locke) 3-4 times in 2 hours, meaning recovery is not a problem.

About xc-skiers, the best are from Norway, Finland and Sweden, and in those Countries there are no mountains....

Renato Canova wrote:

Do you know some swimmer or cyclist or xc-skiers born, living and training in altitude ?

Chris Froome (cyclist with Sky) comes to mind, but we all know he is no good ;)

Thank you for the explanation of the differences between the sports, it's very interesting. I had never heard about osmosis possibly helping swimmers to reduce latate levels quicker than dry-land athletes.

I have long thought that recruiting 800m runners who were maybe just off the mark of national or world class, due to possibly being a bit heavier than ideal for a runner, would make for a fantastic cyclist.

Again, thank you, these are some nice things to meditate on.

Epo doesnt help Kenyans lol you people actually believe that shite?

Renato wrote:

lactate can be removed very quickly because of osmosis (the body is inside water).

This must have been lost in translation. I find it hard to believe Renato thinks lactate simply oozes out of a swimmer but is otherwise "trapped" in a runner. If that were the case, every time someone stepped into a fresh water pool they would shrivel into nothingness due to the massive osmotic gradient (think of pruned fingers in extremis).

Can a scientist explain the intent here? Thx.

Um.. he is full of shit?

.. wrote:

Epo doesnt help Kenyans lol you people actually believe that shite?

Renato seems to - under certain conditions. He professes that a gifted altitude athlete who is highly trained cannot further enrich the oxygen capacity of his/her blood.

To me, that sounds somewhat fantastical. Sort of like the claim that was made by many not so long ago that Kenyans would never use drugs because they are too pure.

So, to answer your question, some of us don't believe that shite. There are some people, however, that would like us to - for obvious reasons.

Renato Canova wrote:

I'm sure Mourhit, Boulami, Ramzi, Selsouli, Turkish 1500 runners, many Russian specialist, could have advantages taking EPO.

Your reasoning is prejudiced. The same can be said of those suspicious Italians and of all the people they coach.

But last December I was in China making a course for Asian coaches, and when I asked why Chinese athletes at the moment run so slowly, some national coach answered "In 1993 they were all doped", so I needed to accept the reality.

Well last December a lot of people on letsrun said Renato uses EPO.

Based on your reasoning, am I to believe what they told me?

On the one hand you say EPO can't help YOUR athletes, because they are coached by you and are African, but you are sure it can help Moroccans, Russians and Chinese!

If you are so convinced that drugs help those athletes from the other countries, and that their records are tainted, then I am convinced that YOU are giving drugs to the athletes you coach.

JR,

This whole drug thing looks like this is all going way over your head.

The Chinese women in 1993 likely didn't take EPO.

rekrunner wrote:

JR,

This whole drug thing looks like this is all going way over your head.

The Chinese women in 1993 likely didn't take EPO.

LOL. HAHAHAHAA.

waitasecond wrote:

Renato wrote:

lactate can be removed very quickly because of osmosis (the body is inside water).

This must have been lost in translation. I find it hard to believe Renato thinks lactate simply oozes out of a swimmer but is otherwise "trapped" in a runner. If that were the case, every time someone stepped into a fresh water pool they would shrivel into nothingness due to the massive osmotic gradient (think of pruned fingers in extremis).

Can a scientist explain the intent here? Thx.

Interestingly this has been studied. Cycling on land versus immersed in water is what I found through a quick google search and the authors found that being in water does help. Huh.

J.R., also if English is not my language, I think I was clear about what I say. Probably you forgot my premise, because you have already in your mind an idea that you don't want to change, exactly like other people believing every athlete is on drug.

I don't speak about MY ATHLETES. I speak about TOP KENYANS ATHLETES, and of course many of them are not coached by myself. I speak about athletes belonging to the limited group I already explained, and Maroccan, Turkish (apart naturalized Ethiopians), Russians and others don't have ANY of the requirements I already explained.

About Italians, of course they can have advantage by use of EPO. And I well know Italy has a very bad record : the first athlete EVER sanctioned for EPO, after the approval of the detecting combined system urine-blood, is an Italian, Roberto Barbi, before WCh in Edmonton 2001.

The simple fact is that Russian, Maroccan and Turkish are continuously sanctioned, while Italian athletes sanctioned for EPO, during the last 12 years, were only Barbi, Di Cecco (marathon runner) and Schwazer (Olympic Champion 50 km walking in 2008, who tried to assume EPO last year in July, and asked to retest ALL his samples till that date because, according to his words, never used EPO before and was forced to use because feared not to be able to double 20 km and 50 km in London and felt too much pressure in his mind.... this can be true or not, it's what he said).

So, your conjectures are totally off-road. I like the fact you don't believe in the drug effects, but I asked you to learn how to read before drawing conclusions not connected with what somebody says.

PS : About Froome, he is born in altitude, but doesn't live and doesn't train in altitude long time every year. And, if he is so strong, may be his particular situation is an advantage, combined with the fact now doping in cycling is very much reduced. If we suppose the most part of current cyclists are now clean, and Froome is one of the best (especially in long Tours), may be because his ability in transporting Oxygen is naturally higher than the same ability of the most part of other cyclists, due to the fact he is born and for long time lived in altitude.

once again:

am i really the only one who thinks that kenya (not only kenya, ethiopia as well) is privileged by all means, considering the fact that in this country numerous world class runners (kenyans and foreign athletes) live and train without being observed by an ambitious doping control system?

am i wrong to believe this thread would have never been started if such a control system would exist in kenya, so the world public might think: ok, no more can´t be done right now, these guys are simply the best?

mr. canova, did you really accept that the chinese women performed so well in the 90´s due to china´s milliard population? and expect us to believe without asking questions that only kenya (40 million people) or east africa can produce so many elites? please have a look at china´s topography and it´s climate. to live and train in the height is not only possible in kenya. it´s so easy to perform lifelong altitude training all over the world.

do you know carsten lundby (university of zürich)? you should!

his research shows: the sense and effect of altitude training is not for sure. it´s not a must-have-done.

Why do you think that Kenyans and Ethiopians are not being observed?

fake runner wrote:

once again:

am i really the only one who thinks that kenya (not only kenya, ethiopia as well) is privileged by all means, considering the fact that in this country numerous world class runners (kenyans and foreign athletes) live and train without being observed by an ambitious doping control system?

I repeat again : if a Country like Norway was able to produce the two best women in the world of long distances in the period 1978-1988, I don't think could be something strange to see Chinese times so good, if you can select the best among 1 billion people.

About Kenyans, for example, this is another big difference between them and European. In Kenya, EVERYBODY TRIES RUNNING FOR CHANGING THEIR LIFE, so who is talented authomatically is in the net. How many potential talented athletes can we find in Europe or America or Oceania, but they don't know athletics and are not interested in running ?

Sometimes, when many of you want to ask why there is not the same deep of talent in some discipline, you forget the social reality, that has a primary role in the choices.

Why black people were not swimmers ?

Scientific explanation : because the specific weight of their bones is higher than caucasic people.

Real reason : because per 100 years black people were not allowed in frequenting pools.

Demonstration : in one of the last Championships, one of the US sprinter was black, and some year ago one black from Trinidad, if I well remember, won 100m butterly (before Phelps' era).

Why Kenyans don't excel in some other sport of endurance, as biking or ski cross ?

Explanation : because they didn't have bikes (till two years ago, the only bikes were Chinese of poor quality, without gear) and roads (if you want to train for cycling in Kenya, you risk to be killed every minute).

Explanation II : because there is no snow.

Why other people living in altitude are not able to produce runners as Kenyans and Ethiopians ?

Explanation : because they don't have any organisation and interest in running.

I discover in December how naive is the organisation in China, and the fact you have mountaines and good places for training in altitude doesn't mean anything, if who lives in those conditions is not interested in running.

In Kenya and Ethiopia they have this interest, in China, India and generally Asia, not.

So, when you speak about another Country, you need to start not from the situation of YOUR Country, but from the knowledge of the real situation there. And, if you know the REAL situation of the most part of Kenya, NEVER you can think there is some doping organisation, when you have to receive only 2 tablets from an official packet containing 20 tablets of some pharmac, because there is a great lack of medicine for saving the normal life of normal people (and not all doctors are criminal like the one cheating athletes with doping).

i wrote not being observed by an "ambitious" system because of this:

http://rrm.com/Newsarchives/archive12/12kenyandoping.htm

how is it possible to complain about doping rumours concerning kenyan athletes if things were like that in the past?

but now it might change a little bit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/21771213

you are perfectly right: the common interest in running in kenya and the situation there are very important reasons to explain the success.

perhaps i failed to explain what i mean:

i would be glad if an ambitious control system would have been established in the past in kenya. the lack of it is the main reason for all the negative talk, nobody should be puzzled.

i don´t say that every good runner there is a doper (would be pure nonsense). but i think we have enough reasons to realize that the "control system" there is a perfect invitation for cheaters.