Why do people think Jim Ryun was so great?

ventolin^3 wrote:

Deanouk wrote:Ryun was at least 2.6 secs slower than Coe over 800m, both running on synthetic tracks. Ryun wasn't in the same league. That is factual, not based on fantasy

you clearly can't think

ryun was 2.6s slower on a semi-synthetic track, after a prelim 3 hours before & ill & this wasn't his peak year

give him a '70s oslo in '67 with fast pace to bell, no prelim & 100% healthy & he wouda obliterated any mark on the list today

Ryun's fastest ever 440 relay split was 46.9 on cinders. Or 46.6 for 400m

can't you read ???

it was 46.9 for a 440y track on a soggy track with a 3'55 mile in his legs & this was his break-out meet in '66 NOT his absolute '67 peak of his 1500 wr/dusseldorf/mile wr

that is low-45 ability in '66 on a synthetic

No it doesn't. That is an opinion of yours based on no facts whatsoever. You cannot possibly quantify how soggy the track was, how much that would slow him down, what the Mile took out of him (even though he is quoted as saying that it felt so easy to T&FN at the time). You can't even claim it as a fact that he ran 46.9, as everywhere I look it says 47.0.

Regardless, it is a FACT that Ryun ran slower on a cinder track than Coe did over 400m. And you have no way of measuring how much a 1:45 800 takes out of an athlete compared to a 3:55.8 Mile. Just as you have no scientific way of calculating how the "cold windy conditions" affected Coe's times either.

We have a 46.3 split on cinder for Coe compared to a 47.0 for Ryun over 440, which is c. 46.7 for 400m. And please check to see that the split for Ryun was taken by someone with a PHD.

Florence was not an unknown track and the questionable timing argument is a pathetic one.

You said Coe 'never won a global gold at 800', which is also wrong. The World Cup was seen at the time as the unofficial world championships. You never stipulated "championship" with rounds. Be clear.

Ryun couldn't have been that ill as he ran a mile the following week.

Coe had a serious virus and still ran 1:43.8. No one in their right mind would continue competing with that diagnosis. Pity your patients if you dish out such advice to them.

ventolin^3 wrote:

[quote]Coe ran a 46.3 relay leg on cinders after running a 400 and 800 in competition on the same day. He also ran a 46.4 split on cinders after a 1:45

that is low-46 on synthetic with also fatigue in his legs

those prelim races don't compare to a 3'55 on a soggy track - a time within 2s of the wr

/quote]

Oh, I see. So Coe's 46.3 on cinders was worth exactly the same on synthetic? So, no -1.0 secs for him then?

But Ryun's 46.9 on cinders is worth low 45 on synthetic?

ROFL. Priceless analysis.

More waffle.

Coe has told me personally that he could have run 1:41.2 that summer. I think he knows more about his 800 potential than you.

Ryun's word about himself is gospel, but Coe talks rubbish according to you.

I have all of Cruz's races on dvd thank you, so I know exactly what he had done and what he was capable of, and it was well known at the time that he was gunning for Coe's record in every race. He let that be known to the world's press. The idea of him running on fumes is nonsense. He had 11 days to recuperate between LA and his first European meet. That is plenty for a 21 year old.

He realised that after 3 serious attempts with rabbits and more company than Coe got, that he wasn't going to do it. And Cruz never had to run extra distance in his races either. He gave up until 85, but couldn't do it then either.

God points. Where would the OP be in his argument with Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio or Jackie Robinson? The people hit the balls out of the park!!

They didn't compete against the best black pitchers and couldn't be compared to great black hitters, so they should be irrelevant?[/quote]

_________________________________________________________

Hate to break the news to you, but there have been only a few great black pitchers. Gibson, JR Richard, Gooden. Don't be claiming Hispanics now.

P.S....Ruth was better than DiMag and DiMg better than Jackie.....sorry.

quercetani sat in a back room compling stats

iaaf woud not pay $100s for him to fly him to time a meet

he compiled stats from meet timings done by someone else - the official timers

dusseldorf wasn't an official iaaf meet - in fact there weren't any back then

nonsense

where does he say he anywhere that he was in dusseldorf timing ryun ???

whether he had access to tape at the time is unknown

does he say anywhere he checked the tape ???

if he was there, he was there as a spectator just as anyone else, not in any official capacity

where does he say he was there ???

name them

& state which were published at the time in a reputable broadsheet not in some cudgelled book written a decade+ later

your sources don't have legitimacy of a contempory published account

clueless

i've told you before but you seem to have comprehension problems

i went with whatever timing a contemporary account in a respected broadsheet said

if it had said 48+ or 50+ i wouda accepted it

they said 49.4 & give split for 800 in 2'03.6

why have you accepted the 2'03.6 split published ???

or is that wrong too ???

t&f news were then just a domestic magazine & still are, although 2 month out of date copies can be found in europe

they likely had some of their staff at domestic meets & they woud quote them

those are their own timings

it's highly unlikely they wouda had any paid members at euro meets in '60s being a domestic magazine

they only sent their writers definitely to olympics & those were the nelson brothers, the founders

they didn't generally send writers to other non-american meets

find where it said t&f sent their writers to dusseldorf ?

their international timings were taken from whatever euro source

i have no faith in 2nd hand quotes

find where t&f said they had timers at the dusseldorf meet

learn to read

a contemporary german broadsheet

nonsense

i'm going with best source

a contemporary german broadsheet which gives detailed account of race

what other source is contemporary, as respected & gives as much of a write-up ???

i said i'd go with whatever timings they

any other sources quote the 800 split ???

learn to read fool

i said if you want to call yourself a "statistician" you better have a quality phd if you want to be respected

not some 14y ole school-leaver who self-appoints

no matter what they might do, they aren't going to be respected

yes

to compile lists

learn to read

if you think the separate issue of timing a race takes any great skill you are a fool

i used to go to meets in '70s & take 2 stopwatches & timed them for my own interest

i don't dare call myself a "statistician"

i'm not - i don't have a quality degree in statistics

any fool who calls himself a "statistician" when all they do is complie lists/splits is a fool - they are a hobbyist list-compiler

a statistician is a formal mathematician specialised in statistics

Deanouk wrote:Yes, it is on the list as a converted 800 time based on an 880y race. They did the same for Wohlhuter's 1:44.6y, but neither of which were ratified as official world records, which is what I wrote. I never doubted that Ryun would have run c. 1:44.3 in that 880yd race, I stated the fact that it wasn't seen as the world record by the IAAF. Those are the facts, which I know you have a problem with. The IAAF Progression of World Records clearly states that there was "no intermediate 800m time".

So it's not nonsense but rather historical fact.

learn to read

iaaf have it in their lists as a legit 800 time

in absence of an 800 time, but 880y they do proportional conversion

the fact iaaf have it in their lists means they accept his 1'44.3 as a legit time which wouda been tied wr

wohl's wr is also accepted on iaaf list

58 1:43.5 Rick Wohlhuter 23 DEC 1948 USA 1 Eugene, OR 08 JUN 1974

both were iaaf wrs

No they were not.

You are not able to read and comprehend my post.

Neither Ryun nor Wohlhuter were ratified as 800m world record holders by the IAAF. This is a fact. It is non negotiable.

nonsense

do you have memory problems or just plain wanting to ignore any thing published that relates to ryun ???

i've posted this link numerous times to his mile/relay in '66 - a contemporary account

it's damn easy to quantify a soggy track

the track was so bad that they coudn't allow the lj'ers to run on it & had to put conveyor belt on it as runway

we have a recent comment saying soggy tracks cost "2 - 3s/lap"

that puts his 3'55.8 with conservative 2s/lap as

~ 3'47.8

his 46.9 for 440y is 46.6+ for 400m

an open 400 woud be ~ 0.75s slower -> 47.37

take off 2s/lap as same above ->

45.37

that's a low-45 after the effort of a 3'47.8 mile !!!

yes we can

it is 2 - 3s/lap

he ran equivalent of a 3'47.8

even superman woud had something taken out of him for a 400 following a 3'47.8

no

that is a contemporary account, not a cudgelled book written 20+y later

it says 46.9

nonsense

can't you read ???

he's running in a quagmire which they coudn't even hold a lj competition on & had to put an artificial runway

coe didn't run 46+ on that sort of track

eh ???

he ran a 1'45.0 worth an ~ 1'43.0 on synthetic, which just about compares with a 3'47.8, but his 46.4 is ~ 46.1 open - it's doesn't compare with ryuns

no

it is 46.9 from a contemporary account

learn to read

it is ~ 45.3 from above

clueless

it was timed at a university track

significant portion of spectators & officials musta been local uni graduates or undergraduates

nonsense

no one had ever heard of florence before coe ran there

there wasn't clocking of any note ever run there before '81

no one ever heard of it

was it even a legit 400 track ???

who knows

the timing broke down as not unexpected at such a no name meet

it took them best part of an hour to give an official time

a complete joke

nonsense

zurich was always "unofficial" wc before world cup, but zurich was just the main meet on circuit

it was NO world championships

no "unoffical" or official world championships can count without prelims

it was a glorified circuit race just to get the east europeans out of their shell & run somewhere in the western world

any adult watching at the time knew it was just a glorified euro meet to get to see likes of koch/oelsner/wockel/beyer/etc on western tv

a 4'02

he ran 3'51 when fit

get a clue

he was 10s slower than expected

nonsense

he chickened out

he lost a slow run 1'45+ in just the sprint

he had coupla weeks between this & wc 800 & shouda rested up whilst having his blood tests/biopsies

they wouda told him he had nothing serious within a coupla days & taken his clindamycin for toxoplasmosis treatment

to have a pb nearly 2s faster than anyone else in the world & not risk to even run in helsinki shows what poor temperament he had

Deanouk wrote:Oh, I see. So Coe's 46.3 on cinders was worth exactly the same on synthetic? So, no -1.0 secs for him then?

eh ???

46.3 -> with ~ 0.75 open conversion is 47.05

knock off a second for synthetic ->

46.05

& 46.15 for the 46.4

call it 46-flat/low-46

But Ryun's 46.9 on cinders is worth low 45 on synthetic?

ROFL. Priceless analysis.

learn to read

ku article above

instead we get your nonsense

you seriously think cruz was in peak rested shape in koln ???

he's dreaming

no one in their right mind expected him to have even run 1'42.3 in '79 let alone 1'41.7 in '81

the unknown track & broken timing did nothing to counter the view

he ran his ultimate race in firenze & any adult watching at the time knew immediately that was peak 800 of not just the season but bet any money he'd never beat it

a completely correct proposition seeing as he continued running for 9y more & never broke 1'43 !!!

he has nothing more to claim in '81

he ran 8 more 800s after firenze & coudn't beat 1'45.4 !

even if some are prelims, likes of kip have run 1'43.9i wr in prelims & rudy has run 1'40.9 solo !!!

he couda/shouda run mid-1'42 solo to back that up, but coud run no better than 1'45.4

nothing in those 8 further 800s showed 1'41.7 form let alone 1'41.2

none of ryun's 800s or 1500/mile wrs were virtually perfect races likes coe's 1'41.7

he was ill, feeling "terrible" in his 800 & had run a prelim 3 hours before - ill & unrested & "forced" to run -ve splits because of the illness

his mile wrs were solo & poor laps included as he freely admits he was a "poor" judge of pace

ryun maybe been guy who wouda most benefited in history from fast rabbits

his 1500 was run off a derisory 61s 1st lap in 95F heat

rubbish pace & terrible heat & smog & he only ran the last 300 hard

nonsense

you were a kid when cruz was running epic

getting dvds 20+y later makes you no expert whatsoever

i saw all cruz's fast euro runs in '84 as an adult, apart from his 2'14

i didn't even think of what he couda run in '84 after games as i'd thought he'd finished his season & was shocked to see him run again, not just once but 4 times !!!

nonsense

i read lot of newspaper & athletics magazine articles at the time & he said no such thing

all he had indicated was that he wanted a fast time in those races, no mention of a wr, which wouda been presumptious & 1.3s faster than his pb, albeit after brutal rounds

this is where a kid at the time woud have had no clue

his pull-out after 1500 prelim indicated to any adult that he had done his work for the year & was likely to go back home to celebrate his gold

it was a shock he ran more

& to think that he was peaking for koln, a meaningless circuit race & last one of the year is nonsense

all his training was for games

the euro circuit races wouda needed recovery from his injury & allowed no meaningful training

most of those 11 days wouda been recovering & some celebrating NOT meaningful training

he was running on vestiges of his olympic training & on fumes by the time of koln

rubbish

no one even expected him to run again in '84 after his injury pull-out from 1500 when he had legit chance of gold in the expected slow-run race - it wasn't, but no one knew that before the 1500 final

the fatigue from

- 2'14.09 on 20th

- 1'42.34 on 22nd

- 1'42.41 on 24th

musta been absolutely crushing by the time he lined up for koln on the 26th, much more of a handicap than coe running 2m extra

this is where an adult & experienced track brain comes into the assessment, not that of some kid who bought the dvds 20+y later

cruz's couda been hardly able to walk lining up for koln

any adult fan with a clue coudn't have expected anything

i happened by chance to switch on the tv & saw that cruz was lining up for ANOTHER 800

this was ludicrous !!!

i thought he'd be lucky to even break 1'45 & a miracle to break 1'44 !!!

to run 1'41.77 with what exhaustion in his legs is very possibly greatest 800 ever - comparable with kip's 1'41.2 off a suicidal 48.3 or rudy's solo 1'40.9

if he hadn't run those 3 other races before, he wouda almost certainly run low-1'41 & may have had an outside shot of 1'41-flat

in '85 his leg length discrepancy injury flared up & he was never same again

in '85 his leg length discrepancy injury flared up & he was never same again

ventolin^3 wrote:

it's damn easy to quantify a soggy track

the track was so bad that they coudn't allow the lj'ers to run on it & had to put conveyor belt on it as runway

we have a recent comment saying soggy tracks cost "2 - 3s/lap"

that puts his 3'55.8 with conservative 2s/lap as

~ 3'47.8

his 46.9 for 440y is 46.6+ for 400m

an open 400 woud be ~ 0.75s slower -> 47.37

take off 2s/lap as same above ->

45.37

that's a low-45 after the effort of a 3'47.8 mile !!!

Oh, we have "a recent comment claiming 2/3 secs" . That's a scientifically tested fact is it?

Rubbish.

ventolin^3 wrote:

[

nonsense

he chickened out

he lost a slow run 1'45+ in just the sprint

he had coupla weeks between this & wc 800 & shouda rested up whilst having his blood tests/biopsies

they wouda told him he had nothing serious within a coupla days & taken his clindamycin for toxoplasmosis treatment

to have a pb nearly 2s faster than anyone else in the world & not risk to even run in helsinki shows what poor temperament he had

Call yourself a doctor? Perhaps its time you retired old man, as you don't seem to have a clue. No sportsman recovers from toxoplasmosis in a couple of weeks. He didn't run again until January.

No doctor of repute would advocate a sportsman returning to physical exertion with a viral condition like that. He was in and out of hospital for weeks. And no athlete would participate knowing they were ill and risking further damage, unless they had a self destruct mechanism.

Strange how you use glandular fever as an excuse for Ryun not winning in Mexico and failing to run anywhere near 1:44 or 3:35 ever again after 1968.

But Coe suffering from toxoplasmosis, which stays in the system for years, was a chicken for pulling out of a race while ill. He was never the same athlete after 83, yet he still managed to win several more medals and run consistently fast times. Ryun was washed up after 68. No longevity.

Deanouk wrote:Oh, we have "a recent comment claiming 2/3 secs" . That's a scientifically tested fact is it?

Rubbish.

eh ???

you are so stoopid it defies belief

it's 2 - 3s/lap from experience, observation & some testimony

look 2'25 into vid

[quote]ventolin^3 wrote:

none of ryun's 800s or 1500/mile wrs were virtually perfect races likes coe's 1'41.7

he was ill, feeling "terrible" in his 800 & had run a prelim 3 hours before - ill & unrested & "forced" to run -ve splits because of the illness

his mile wrs were solo & poor laps included as he freely admits he was a "poor" judge of pace

ryun maybe been guy who wouda most benefited in history from fast rabbits

his 1500 was run off a derisory 61s 1st lap in 95F heat

rubbish pace & terrible heat & smog & he only ran the last 300 hard

/quote]

Coe's race wasn't perfect, he had to run wide on a bend.

Blah, blah. Ryun wasn't ill. If you're ill you don't run. He ran twice and said after the race that he had "the feeling of having all this tremendous strength". Those are not the words of someone who was ill or feeling bad.

ventolin^3 wrote:

Deanouk wrote:Oh, we have "a recent comment claiming 2/3 secs" . That's a scientifically tested fact is it?

Rubbish.

eh ???

you are so stoopid it defies belief

it's 2 - 3s/lap from experience, observation & some testimony

look 2'25 into vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIVZyLTC5cA

LOL. I'm stoopid?

Says the man who states as fact that Ryun was a 45 flat, 1:40, 3:24, 3:41 man 45 years ago, based purely on your ability to knock random seconds off his times for heat, headaches, track conditions, rain, menstrual cycles, etc.!

I know which one of us would be convicted of stupidity in a court of law?

All your claims are opinions. You cannot prove any of them as scientific facts. None.

And you would be laughed of tracks around the world with your claims of what Ryun was capable of. I know of no reputable person in the sport who would agree with you on any of the claims above.

What is a fact is that the IAAF NEVER ratified Ryun's run as the 800m world record. Now that would stand up in court.

Do you see the difference between fact and opinion?

eh ???

you haven't a clue

toxoplasmosis is NOT a virus

it's a protozoa & clindamycin is Rx of choice

a course of it for 1/52 wouda cleared infection & he couda run after

he'd trained enough & even if "only" in 1'44 shape he wouda expected to medal

he chickened out

his problem

he shouda been good enough to medal after antibiotics & train for '84 as usual off-season

poor temperament

you're way out of your depth

it's a protozoa & clindamycin, although a brutal antibiotic wouda got him fit enough for 800

he shouda been training near enough normal within 1/12 for '84

eh ???

it's 3'33 on dirt

ryun didn't suffer from a protozoa, easily treated but brutal antibiotic, but mono, which has no cure

he didn't quit when running a 1'45.3 when only outsprinted in last 50m by cram/elliott/wuyke for a narrow loss

ryun ran last in trials with 2'02.6 & looked dead & buried

( an event he shouda demolished in mexico

he wouda taken out 5 - 10m out of doubell in the stretch if in '67 shape )

but picked himself up instead of quitting to eke out the 1500 qualification

he managed to run 50.8 for last lap at altitude in a 3'49.0, despite running in lane 3

he looks like Secretariat !!!

& the guy coudn't break 2'02 just 5/7 before in his "easier" opposition event - trials & games

no

it doesn't

it clears with antibiotics - it's a protozoa NOT a virus

yes

he couda been cleared after 1/52 of antibiotics but didn't have the guts to run 800wc

authorities wouda started to test him lot more

same as kazankina got banned after '84, it's damn interesting coe coudn't break 1'43 after '81, when by early/mid-'80s they started testing at euro meets

it shows herculean strength & determination to get dead last in your 800m wr event in 2'02 & come back to win the 1500 with a 50.8, running into lane 3 in penultimate bend

coe had nothing of this fortitude

shows also how good keino was to beat even this pretty good ryun

Deanouk wrote:Coe's race wasn't perfect, he had to run wide on a bend

cruz was not in perfect shape in koln

after 2'14.0 & 1'42.3 & 1'43.4 his manager shouda been jailed for letting him run that series let alone getting a dead horse to run koln

get a clue kid

those 4 runs are the greatest series of runs EVER in history of middle distance running

Blah, blah. Ryun wasn't ill. If you're ill you don't run

clueless

what part of "terrible" don't you comprehend ???

He ran twice and said after the race that he had "the feeling of having all this tremendous strength"

after a 1st lap where he didn't have the strength to crack 53

is this getting into your numbskull ???

Those are not the words of someone who was ill or feeling bad.

rubbish

these are words of a guy who coudn't crack 53 on 1st lap when snell ran wr off 51.0 for 440

your poor-cognition think ryun was aiming for wr that day ???

or his 4'02 after was planning as a distractor to back up a low/non-paid vid some 40y later ???