In a previously provided quote Shifrinson himself admits that the discovered documents do not evidence a NATO agreement, but rather the recollection of some to the NATO participants about matters discussed in negotiation of agreements. Under the law, things discussed leading up to an agreement but not in the agreement are ignored in interpreting the agreement. So no, those aren't "NATO's words" and if those words aren't in a written agreement, there is no agreement on the subject. However, the written terms in the agreement should still bind the parties.
It seems that Russia either was poorly represented in crafting agreements, or really didn't care as much as Putin now cares.
You don't have evidence NATO members did not say what they said. Point conceded many times. No need to lower yourself further.
What are your thoughts about a Nazi collaborator greeting becoming Ukraine's official army salute? This is really offensive to victimized people around the world.
'Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the Heroes! These words and this greeting will become Armed Forces of Ukraine official military greeting.'
I'm beginning to think that you don't even know what the words "point conceded" means, because you keep misapplying them.
You are ignoring the fact that there is no written agreement, and the fact that the recollections of things allegedly said that didn't get in the agreement, even if they were in fact uttered, have no legal significance. The recollections you repeatedly reference are either accurate or not, but they don't constitute an agreement by NATO if NATO didn't sign an agreement that contained them. And presumably Russia knew what the agreements said and didn't say when they signed them.
So you can cut and paste a few hundred more times, and you probably will. But even a thousand times won't turn pre-agreement statements by participants in negotiations for an agreement into an agreement by NATO. That's presumably why Shifrinson admitted that there was no NATO agreement on limiting expansion. One could even say that the failure to produce a written agreement on the subject by NATO over the many weeks of this discussion is an implied concession of the point that such an agreement doesn't exist.
As for your attempt to change the subject, I have no defense for Ukrainian Nazis or Russian invaders/murderers/rapists/thieves. But the enemy of my enemy is my temporary ally. Russia in its various guises has been an enemy my entire life. And anyone who supports them, spouts their propaganda, wears there iconography as a tattoo or otherwise carries their water is an enemy too. And if such person is pretending to be an American, such person is a traitor irrespective of their pretenses otherwise.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
This is cecci's standard tactic. Makes absurd claim. Gets dunked on so hard that he looks like some bench warmer for Angola playing against the US in the 1992 olympics. Claims victory and that points have been conceded.
It's his way of admitting defeat and changing topics before being embarrassed further.
Russia is winning. They are in Ukraine. Don't ethnic cleanse against groups of people with Nazis. Then you won't get liberated...
What are your thoughts about the only church now allowed in Ukraine supporting Nazi ideology?
Remember all the times that you have been accused of posting some false and/or erroneous information, and when you are confronted with it, you just change the topic? This is another such time.
You claim there is an agreement between NATO and Russia where NATO agrees not to expand, but that somehow this enormous international agreement was never reduced to writing or signed by anyone from Russia or any NATO members. I shouldn't have had to, but I did point out to you in detail why that claim of yours is both impossible and naive. Rather than respond to that, you just called me ignorant (of what, we don't know) and went off on an irrelevant tangent about Russian complaints about NATO as if we weren't discussing your fantasy agreement at all.
There is no agreement between NATO and Russia whereby NATO promises not to expand. It does not exist, except in the wishful fantasies of a small minority. You are incredibly naive and unsophisticated in your beliefs. You seem to lack normal adult experience and perspective regarding basics of how the world operates.
I've never claimed there was a written agreement.
I just linked the US Ambassador to the Soviet Union saying there was an implicit agreement and guarantees.
Perhaps folks like Carmine, cissy, and the diaper boy in the room are all too young to have witnessed the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and the USSR.
To think that the USSR, which was collapsing of its own accord, somehow made the decision to disband the Warsaw Pact, whose members were simply quitting, while negotiating with NATO is simply hilarious - and tells everyone reading such posts that Carmine-Cissy-Diaper Boy did not live through that era and have absolutely no idea how it all played out.
But here they are - experts!
Just too funny
It was a very interesting time to be alive. For decades we were presented with the fearsome image of the USSR and Warsaw Pact, and then it all fell apart so quickly.
It was then bizarre to see countries like Poland help the USA in Desert Storm. Such a thing would have been unimaginable just a couple years earlier. It also showed that former Warsaw-pact countries were already currying favor with the USA.
Poland has had a deep seated hatred for Russia since long before the USA was even a country.
According to an article in Der Spiegel, a newly discovered document dated March 1991 shows that discussions between the West and Russia made it clear that NATO would not expand past East Germany an agreement that it appears to have reneged on.
The document was found in the UK National Archives by Joshua Shifrinson, a political science professor at Boston University in the US. It had been marked “Secret” but was declassified at some point. Shifrinson tweeted on Friday he was “honoured” to work with Der Spiegel on the document showing that “Western diplomats believed they had indeed made a NATO non-enlargement pledge.”
US Assistant Secretary of State for Europe and Canada Raymond Seitz saying: “We made it clear to the Soviet Union, in the 2+4 talks, as well as in other negotiations that we do not intend to benefit from the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Eastern Europe,”
“NATO should not expand to the east, either officially or unofficially.”
A British representative also mentions the existence of a “general agreement” that membership of NATO for eastern European countries is “unacceptable.”
West German diplomat Juergen Hrobog said of the 1991 agreement:
“We had made it clear during the 2+4 negotiations that we would not extend NATO beyond the Elbe. We could not therefore offer Poland and others membership in NATO.”
The minutes later clarified he was referring to the Oder River, the boundary between East Germany and Poland. Hrobog further noted that West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl and Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher had agreed with this position as well.
“Senior policymakers deny a non-expansion pledge was offered. This new document shows otherwise,” Shifrinson said in a follow-up tweet, noting that “beyond” the Elbe or Oder by any standard includes Eastern European countries to which NATO started expanding just eight years later.
New find of files from 1991 supports Russian accusation For decades, Russia has claimed that NATO's eastward expansion violated Western commitments after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Now a remarkable document has surfaced.
In a previously provided quote Shifrinson himself admits that the discovered documents do not evidence a NATO agreement, but rather the recollection of some to the NATO participants about matters discussed in negotiation of agreements. Under the law, things discussed leading up to an agreement but not in the agreement are ignored in interpreting the agreement. So no, those aren't "NATO's words" and if those words aren't in a written agreement, there is no agreement on the subject. However, the written terms in the agreement should still bind the parties.
It seems that Russia either was poorly represented in crafting agreements, or really didn't care as much as Putin now cares.
On May 17, 1990, NATO Secretary-General Manfred Wörner said that NATO would not expand the territory of the Federal Republic of Germany. In a speech addressed to the Bremer Tabaks Collegium on May 17, 1990, Wörner said: “The very fact that we [NATO] are ready not to deploy NATO troops beyond the territory of the Federal Republic gives the Soviet Union firm security guarantees.”
Putin referenced this in his 2007 speech in Munich as talk of NATO in Ukraine and Georgia ramped up after NATO gobbled up eastern Europe.
Russia invaded Georgia a year later.
It does not matter what anyone believes the truth is when it comes to what RUSSIA will do.
Russia behaves according to its OWN beliefs whether they are true or not. The people running Russia for the last 20 years believe NATO broke a promise.
With a disregard for losses, the paramilitary group’s penal battalions have advanced at the time when the regular Russian military remains largely stalled.
You don't have evidence NATO members did not say what they said. Point conceded many times. No need to lower yourself further.
What are your thoughts about a Nazi collaborator greeting becoming Ukraine's official army salute? This is really offensive to victimized people around the world.
'Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the Heroes! These words and this greeting will become Armed Forces of Ukraine official military greeting.'
1. You are ignoring the fact that there is no written agreement
2. But the enemy of my enemy is my temporary ally.
1. You can't prove NATO members did not say what they said about not expanding. Or that Russia did not understand what they said. Don't worry, others can't either.
2. But great to know you embrace Nazi ideology for as long as Russia protects ethnic Russians from being ethnically cleansed by your temporary Nazi ally.
Here's the great part from your Nazi support now:
after all this ends, Ukraine will continue championing Nazi ideology with national holidays every year. Then they will target others in Ukraine, like they did ethnic Russians in the Donbas.
What minority group of people in Ukraine do you think will become their next target? Roma people, who your Nazis beat up regularly in the Ukraine. Your temporary support = their permanent bigotry.
"Ukraine Designates National Holiday to Commemorate Nazi Collaborator"
Separately, the state banned 'Book of Thieves' which criticizes the anti-Semitic actions of a different national leader for 'inciting ethnic, racial and religious hatred
1. You are ignoring the fact that there is no written agreement
2. But the enemy of my enemy is my temporary ally.
1. You can't prove NATO members did not say what they said about not expanding. Or that Russia did not understand what they said. Don't worry, others can't either.
2. But great to know you embrace Nazi ideology for as long as Russia protects ethnic Russians from being ethnically cleansed by your temporary Nazi ally.
Here's the great part from your Nazi support now:
after all this ends, Ukraine will continue championing Nazi ideology with national holidays every year. Then they will target others in Ukraine, like they did ethnic Russians in the Donbas.
What minority group of people in Ukraine do you think will become their next target? Roma people, who your Nazis beat up regularly in the Ukraine. Your temporary support = their permanent bigotry.
"Ukraine Designates National Holiday to Commemorate Nazi Collaborator"
Separately, the state banned 'Book of Thieves' which criticizes the anti-Semitic actions of a different national leader for 'inciting ethnic, racial and religious hatred
More than half of all Nazis in the world are in Russia. MORE. THAN. HALF. There is no country on earth that embraces Nazism as thoroughly as Russia. Including Tsar Putin. The biggest Nazi supporter in the world.
Ukrainians Nazis > Average Russians > Russian Nazis.
What are your thoughts on half of all Nazis being Russian?
What are your thoughts on Russians and the Russian government honoring Stalin?
Your Nazi state in Kyiv and Western Ukraine is starting unravel in Eastern Ukraine:
"Residents of Kharkiv Ukraine , write an appeal to Putin asking for protection, the security of lives.. and the transparency to referendum ballots to be taken seriously by the EU.. in addition they also mentioned that they do not recognize Kiev Nazi Regime."
Residents of Kharkiv Ukraine 🇺🇦, write an appeal to Putin asking for protection, the security of lives.. and the transparency to referendum ballots to be taken seriously by the EU.. in addition they also mentioned that they do not recognize Kiev Nazi Regime. pic.twitter.com/l7VMeAogZ9
1. You are ignoring the fact that there is no written agreement
2. But the enemy of my enemy is my temporary ally.
1. You can't prove NATO members did not say what they said about not expanding. Or that Russia did not understand what they said. Don't worry, others can't either.
2. But great to know you embrace Nazi ideology for as long as Russia protects ethnic Russians from being ethnically cleansed by your temporary Nazi ally.
Here's the great part from your Nazi support now:
after all this ends, Ukraine will continue championing Nazi ideology with national holidays every year. Then they will target others in Ukraine, like they did ethnic Russians in the Donbas.
What minority group of people in Ukraine do you think will become their next target? Roma people, who your Nazis beat up regularly in the Ukraine. Your temporary support = their permanent bigotry.
"Ukraine Designates National Holiday to Commemorate Nazi Collaborator"
Separately, the state banned 'Book of Thieves' which criticizes the anti-Semitic actions of a different national leader for 'inciting ethnic, racial and religious hatred
I hope you are pretending to be as dense are you are coming across. I have no interest in proving that those statements weren't made, because the statements are irrelevant if they aren't in the written agreement. And if they aren't in the written agreement, then there is no NATO agreement limiting expansion.
Your second point is absurd. Countries do not support every policy or belief of their allies or segments of the population of their allies. And a decision by an American to support resisting the invasion of another country by Russia is not a decision to support all of the policies of that target country. Similarly, I'll assume that your decision to live in Japan doesn't constitute your endorsement of Japanese troops using Chinese civilians for bayonet practice or forcing Korean women into sex slavery. But in doing so I'm being more generous than you are.
1. You can't prove NATO members did not say what they said about not expanding. Or that Russia did not understand what they said. Don't worry, others can't either.
2. But great to know you embrace Nazi ideology for as long as Russia protects ethnic Russians from being ethnically cleansed by your temporary Nazi ally.
Here's the great part from your Nazi support now:
after all this ends, Ukraine will continue championing Nazi ideology with national holidays every year. Then they will target others in Ukraine, like they did ethnic Russians in the Donbas.
What minority group of people in Ukraine do you think will become their next target? Roma people, who your Nazis beat up regularly in the Ukraine. Your temporary support = their permanent bigotry.
"Ukraine Designates National Holiday to Commemorate Nazi Collaborator"
Separately, the state banned 'Book of Thieves' which criticizes the anti-Semitic actions of a different national leader for 'inciting ethnic, racial and religious hatred
More than half of all Nazis in the world are in Russia. MORE. THAN. HALF. There is no country on earth that embraces Nazism as thoroughly as Russia. Including Tsar Putin. The biggest Nazi supporter in the world.
Yeah? prove it. You never have. Lol.
Certainly you can find an entire Nazi soccer game in Russia, like this one in Ukraine. Just normal Ukraine civilians and their families all being Nazi together.
100+B Tax $'s hard at work ukraine Nazi Salute at sports stadium Wow look at this crazy Trump rally salute. This is not OK!https://t.co/h5QObtGSPX
1. You can't prove NATO members did not say what they said about not expanding. Or that Russia did not understand what they said. Don't worry, others can't either.
2. But great to know you embrace Nazi ideology for as long as Russia protects ethnic Russians from being ethnically cleansed by your temporary Nazi ally.
Here's the great part from your Nazi support now:
after all this ends, Ukraine will continue championing Nazi ideology with national holidays every year. Then they will target others in Ukraine, like they did ethnic Russians in the Donbas.
What minority group of people in Ukraine do you think will become their next target? Roma people, who your Nazis beat up regularly in the Ukraine. Your temporary support = their permanent bigotry.
"Ukraine Designates National Holiday to Commemorate Nazi Collaborator"
Separately, the state banned 'Book of Thieves' which criticizes the anti-Semitic actions of a different national leader for 'inciting ethnic, racial and religious hatred
I hope you are pretending to be as dense are you are coming across. I have no interest in proving that those statements weren't made, because the statements are irrelevant if they aren't in the written agreement. And if they aren't in the written agreement, then there is no NATO agreement limiting expansion.
Your second point is absurd. Countries do not support every policy or belief of their allies or segments of the population of their allies. And a decision by an American to support resisting the invasion of another country by Russia is not a decision to support all of the policies of that target country. Similarly, I'll assume that your decision to live in Japan doesn't constitute your endorsement of Japanese troops using Chinese civilians for bayonet practice or forcing Korean women into sex slavery. But in doing so I'm being more generous than you are.
Just ugly stuff. Please, urge your family not to procreate, because you are making more permanent Nazis with your "temporary" Nazi support. You honestly think Nazi signage on Ukraine streets for regular people to be coopted into Nazi ideology is ok. To then target minorities.
You have bottomed out on the moral low ground.
Advertisment in Lviv streets of a Ukrainian soldier holding a flag with the SS Nazi Totenkopf.
So are we all adopting a pro-Russian position now? Is that’s hip in contrarian politics today?
No there's just a lot of really stupid people who think the only 2 options are "pro-Russia" or "pro-Ukraine".
What's worse, the "pro-Ukraine" crowd thinks the complete destruction of Ukraine and hundreds of thousands of deaths is preferable to Ukraine reverting back to the status quo of 2014.
Ukraine has never been and never will be a democracy. It's too corrupt.
So are we all adopting a pro-Russian position now? Is that’s hip in contrarian politics today?
No there's just a lot of really stupid people who think the only 2 options are "pro-Russia" or "pro-Ukraine".
What's worse, the "pro-Ukraine" crowd thinks the complete destruction of Ukraine and hundreds of thousands of deaths is preferable to Ukraine reverting back to the status quo of 2014.
Ukraine has never been and never will be a democracy. It's too corrupt.
This is a great opportunity to buy Lockheed Martin and Raytheon stock. Some of you need to think more positively about US interventionism. I can add to my retirement and help bleed Russia dry in a twenty year war!
More than half of all Nazis in the world are in Russia. MORE. THAN. HALF. There is no country on earth that embraces Nazism as thoroughly as Russia. Including Tsar Putin. The biggest Nazi supporter in the world.
Yeah? prove it. You never have. Lol.
Certainly you can find an entire Nazi soccer game in Russia, like this one in Ukraine. Just normal Ukraine civilians and their families all being Nazi together.
J.P. Morgan on Thursday forecast Russia would be able to maintain its oil output at pre-Ukraine conflict levels due to steady demand from China and India but said it might struggle to reroute some of its oil product exports a...
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