Training in racing flats?

greg ward wrote:

exhaust "normal" options like i have (nearly 4 years of doctors, massage therapy, shockwave, ultrasound, stretching, etc) and then do it. don't just jump right in blindly.

Or, you could keep your eyes open and skip the 4 wasted years.

I found the article re: Baumann: "Dieter Baumann said once after altitude training in Kenya, one of the greatest advantages of the Kenyans as runners is that they were running and walking barefoot on the warm loess ground of the African highlands, something that couldn't be repeated like this in our latitudes. There was regret in his voice when Baumann talked about this, not for the poor Africans, but for the poor Europeans who grew up since baby age with laced shoes."

http://www.runningbarefoot.org/BeneficialBarefootRunning.html

[quote]dunes runner wrote:

Your feet and legs get tired in the flats because the soles are too soft.quote]

Wrong and uninformed.

The only thing that has ever made my feet "tired" is too much exercise. The problem with flats is that they hurt my joints. They do this because they are too hard, not because they are too soft. They are much harder than my trainers. My trainers are much softer and after wearing them my joints always feel much better

Bump for the dog.

ease into flats training. I read this thread and went crazy just trained in flats not enough time of accoustomizing. Now I got so funky injuries. Definately not something you want to do all the time if unused to it.

Anyone try running in these things?

http://www.fogdog.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1069393

There is no outsole connection between heel and forefoot, which I imagine gives great flexibility.

GI Joes has them in stock.

+removable midsole which is really just a beafed up sock liner but well done.

+flexible under the arch there is nothing but leather under the arch.

+narrow heal

-stiff narrow forefoot that has a pointed shaped

The uneven flex in the shoe will probably cause problems and pointed toe is a major show stopper.I passed on em pretty quickly.

i've been doing the teva proton thing for about a month now. two weeks ago i actually started getting some pretty bad tendonitis pain in my right foot a day after doing a 2.5 hour run/hike in the hills. i was running up a lot of hills with a very powerful pushoff, something you can't really do in normal shoes, and just overdid it. the problem got worse for a week thanks to my very beat up running shoes that i wear at work. so this past thursday i got really agressive with it and iced it a lot, took aleve, and started wearing nothing but my protons. as of today it's almost 100%.

why do i share this? just as a warning that you can definitely hurt yourself if you do too much of this barefoot/racing flat stuff too soon. but you aren't going to get hurt because of biomechanics (in most cases). you are going to get hurt because you are overworking new muscles and tendons while the rest of your body is used to doing the work you are asking it to do. luckilly i have no time table or deadline of when i need to be doing X amount of mileage. just happy to be getting my legs strong again. this would be very hard to do while you are in heavy training and have clear cut goals in the near future.

can anyone recommend casual shoes that are very flexible and light so i can wear something other than racing flats or tevas around town?

After trying this for about three weeks now, I am glad to report that I cannot even run now. My Plantar Faciatis flare up got to the point that it hurts to walk.I have now lost this year of racing.....Remember the phrase - "Free advise - you get what you pay for"I am going back to trainers.I will wait for that class action suit on the shoe companys!

running store wrote:

Although I am not sold on it yet, I think I'm going to give it a try.

.

well, common sense would go a long way for many of you, it would appear.

listen, no one on this thread said "throw away your trainers right away." they just said that switching to racing flats, etc., would lead to an alleviation of symptoms.

but as runners are wont to do, some have gone overboard. think about this for a second:

when you get orthotics, does the doctor tell you to just slap 'em in there and run your usual 80m/week? nooooooo, you're supposed to ease into them, to let your feet and ankles and muscles get used to them.

from exercise physiology, it takes 5-8 weeks for tendons to adapt to new stresses. giving it 3 weeks all out is NOT the optimal way to go; that's like taking up swimming and starting with 5000yds a day like a top h.s. swimmer--your shoulders will fall off with tendonitis.

i, on the other hand, and i'm sure there are many of you out there doing similar things, have been running sans shoes for 3 weeks now...but NOT every day. my barefoot running

a) takes place ONLY on grass field

b) is only done 2-3x week

c) is done at moderate pace

d) only makes up a minority of my mileage

granted, i was injured, so my mileage is not that high, but in h.s., i ran approximately 15% of my weekly mileage barefoot, no problem. and going out and doing a 2-hr run in teva protons after 2 weeks MIGHT NOT be such a good idea...

but i'm sold that this will work--if you need it, my original caveat from earlier posts, because if it ain't broke, don't fix it--if you work it in the same as you'd work in speed...NOT by running 40x400, but starting in moderation.

geez, did you think the moroccans just threw away their trainers?

good luck to all!

cheers,

greg

you need to listen to your body, that's your problem.

running store wrote:

Remember the phrase - "Free advise - you get what you pay for"

but i'm sure it's better to take advice from someone who is trying to SELL you something (such as a shoe salesman) right?

running store wrote:

Message:

After trying this for about three weeks now, I am glad to report that I cannot even run now. My Plantar Faciatis flare up got to the point that it hurts to walk.

I have now lost this year of racing.....

Remember the phrase - "Free advise - you get what you pay for"

I am going back to trainers.

I will wait for that class action suit on the shoe companys!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dude,

I bet you tried it cold turkey. Lots of people on this thread are suggesting training in flats/minimalist shoes as a good idea, but I don't think anyone is saying you can just do it straight away. You've been running in shoes for years. That would be like running barefoot with no transition (but not so extreme). Any new thing, no matter how good, must be instituted g-r-a-d-u-a-l-l-y.

#1 I don't own the store, I work there. I don't get paid on commission, so what would I have to gain from selling something? I do it because I love the sport as most people on here do.

#2 I never said that I wore them everyday in my previous post. I have always run 2-3 days of speed in them, I then added two morning runs and one of my longer runs in them. It definitely didn't work more me, and I think that people that over pronate much at all will have the same results as I do.

From talking to people that actually have studied the foot and foot problems they laugh at this thread. They tell me that it is ridiculous to even think that it works. And no, they weren't trying to sell me orthodics.

I think if training in racing flats worked as well as people say then a company would have figured this out and started to market towards those.

running store wrote:

I think if training in racing flats worked as well as people say then a company would have figured this out and started to market towards those.

Actually, a company has "figured this out". The company is NIKE and they sell boat loads of racing flats in Japan and China to runners who use them as regular, everyday trainers. The problem is that most of us have grown up with shoes and our feet are not prepared to go back to doing what is natural. They are weak.

...and so many of these athletes have LONG careers right?

DougC wrote:

[Actually, a company has "figured this out". The company is NIKE and they sell boat loads of racing flats in Japan and China to runners who use them as regular, everyday trainers.

look, get off running store\'s case, for one. he\'s entitled to his opinion, and as i\'ve stated numerous times, what works for me might not work for you, and vice versa.

but i do object to the idea that people \"scoff\" at this idea. the orthopedic surgeon i shadowed for 4 weeks (the one whose book i got a large portion of my article citations from) actually agreed with me that it IS something to consider. even though he has an orthoticist in his office 3days/week. my h.s. coach who coached collegiately for quite a while, agreed that barefoot running/lightweight trainers/running flats, etc. has its place for some people, and that one should NOT just jump in.

as i stated above (about 15 posts back) i can give you the documentation to show that this IS biomechanically favorable, no matter what your sources might tell you, mr. store. i realize, since i DID work in a running shoe store, that i was a little close minded, but that close-minded is also safe for most (read: recreational) runners.

also keep in mind that those same drs. that laughed at the idea were educated WITHIN the system, and therefore, much like people who disparage alternative medicine and then are wowed when it works, have a schema for treatment, etc. after years of doing things the same way, the SAFE thing to do for them is to laugh it off, since they are \'superior\' to such oversimplifications.

but the simple fact remains: our feet were \"designed\" by evolution to do work, bear stress, etc. everyone talks about kenyans, etc. being designed for running...well, so are all humans to varying degrees, and our feet are paramount to that ability. we DO weaken our feet/lower leg by wearing shoes, but in htis broken-glass-on-the-sidewalk world, we have little choice.

but i\'m still going to keep running in flats and barefoot, because i FEEL, and i\'m being genuine here, that it is working.

running store, i also appreciate your input, because thsi wouldn\'t be a debate if we all agreed. and i learn much by finding out things to try and present both sides, and am certainly NOT going to throw out my shoes, either. i might just wear them a little less often...

good luck healing up.

cheers,

greg

Yes. The Japanese do not have unusually short careers... The article I read implied that Nike sells its flats not only to Japanese elites, but to the average runner as well. We like Nike Air Max Moto, they like Nike Streak Spectrum Plus. As a side note, almost all training shoes made in the 50s and 60s and early 70s would be considered "flats" now. They were very minimal shoes and served the purpose.

greg ward wrote:

but the simple fact remains: our feet were "designed" by evolution to do work, bear stress, etc. everyone talks about kenyans, etc. being designed for running...well, so are all humans to varying degrees, and our feet are paramount to that ability. we DO weaken our feet/lower leg by wearing shoes, but in htis broken-glass-on-the-sidewalk world, we have little choice.

greg

It isn't the broken glass on the sidewalk that's the problem. It's the sidewalk itself. However our feet may have adapted to work they have not adapted to concrete and pavement. They have also not adapted to running 100+ miles per week, weeek after week. Even hunter gatherers who had to range far could not possibly have needed to run 15-20 miles a day every single day. Not a chance. And wherever they might have traveled, it sure wasn't on pavement.

I like idea of running in flats. I do a significant portion of my weekly mileage in them. I am very happy to for the people who can do all their mileage in them. But some people just can't do that. It isn't that they've been "coddled" by years of cushioned shoes or are built up with "bad" orthotics. It's just that their bodies will not take it.

I've been running for over 20 years I regularly do over 100 mpw. I've done up to 50 of those weekly miles in flats (though it's usually more like 20). I've got a smooth stride and no need for orthotics or motion control of any kind. But give me more than two weeks in a row with that lots of miles in flats and my joints complain. They do now and they did 10 years ago.

Over the years I've known probably 8-10 people who have tried to make the switch completely (and gradually) and about two of them succeeded.

People always mention how much better it is to run on soft surfaces like dirt than it is to run on pavement. Well how different is it so wear soft cushioned (non-motion-control) shoes on pavement? You are essentially carrying your soft surface around with you every stride. That's how I look at it anyway.