El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

Armstronglivs wrote:

Such an elaborate smokescreen to avoid explaining how all those other performance enhancing stimulants you listed are not banned.

That is because you talked about the supposed importance between "mere potential" versus "perceptibly significant", and not about why some PEDs are not banned.

I didn't realize that there you were so confused by this, as I figured you must already know the criteria used by WADA -- performance enhancement is neither necessary nor sufficient to ban a substance.

After witnessing your exchange with Aragon, it's become crystal clear that you don't yet understand the plain language criteria published by WADA.

how does that work? wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

They just increase the rate. The natural limit is not what you think it is. You just have a made up number in your head. Like when they said a four minute mile was physically impossible.

Increase the rate of what? Do you really believe that there is a superhuman level of oxygen kinetics beyond human limits that is achievable with EPO/Blood doping?

There isn't.

The rate of kinetics. No, it's just a bit more. This is not hard to understand. At least not for me.

Your incessant "superhuman" and "human limits" are made up. Stop it.

rekrunner wrote:

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

I take it that if neither Kiptum nor Boulami were busted for doping and both WRs stand today, you would state that they're were both highly talented athletes who trained "naturally" and it was their extreme talent that won the day and set a WR?

If I'm correct on your stance on this,

You are not correct.

If Kiptum and Boulami were never busted, these world record performances in the half-marathon and steeple, do not put them in the same league as El G, Komen, Geb, or Bekele. I would state, and have stated, that half-marathon and steeple are weak events. Kiptum would first have to put in some Kipchoge-esque marathon performances, and it is just a question of time before Boulami's record falls to Kenyans, if they decide to go for it -- something not very common in the steeple.

Even though the HM & steeple aren't up there in the same popularity as the 15, 5000, 10,000 & marathon, I think you're undermining Kiptum's & Boulimi's performances because they're simply doped - your strategy & methodology of undermining an IC EPO doping violation and an ABP hematological anomalies case that obviously aided in the setting of two WRs. Boulami's time of 7:53.17 still stands today and likes of great Kenyan talent in Shaheen, Kipruto & Koech have been unable to break the record over the years.

Kiptum set the HM WR @ Valencia literally "doped to the gills" with a very Hct level of 56 (his initial # pursuant to his first ABP blood draw 3 weeks before Valencia was a riduclas 60!). He followed that up 6 weeks later running his marathon PB of 2:04.16 @ Dhabi again all doped up with a Hct reading in the mid-50s (his PB ranks 26th fastest all-time).

Since these are IC doping violations, you deflect by dismissing their performances because of the events they ran in (i.e. it's no big deal because it's only the "weak events" of the HM & steeple).

I see why you grasp with your all stubbornness to believe the 1500 WR is clean despite strong circumstantial evidence to suggest otherwise. The notion that the WR could have been doped must irk you to no end convincing yourself the record has be to clean because this is argubly the strongest event in T&F history.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

Increase the rate of what? Do you really believe that there is a superhuman level of oxygen kinetics beyond human limits that is achievable with EPO/Blood doping?

There isn't.

The rate of kinetics. No, it's just a bit more. This is not hard to understand. At least not for me.

Your incessant "superhuman" and "human limits" are made up. Stop it.

It's called Thermoregulation. Look it up.

Hicham el Gerrouj didn't need a higher VO2 max than normal to run 3.26. This is what you don't seem to grasp.

This is why you believe doping gives superhuman energy kinetics. There is no such thing.

Well then, keep on the right path. It is unrealidtic though to expect Exercise Physiologists to understand this. Evidently most of them have limited understanding of the subject. Some of the school textbooks have the same contradictions expressed here on this thread.

Again, what you think about what I think is incorrect.

Some events are more competitive and have more world record attempts.

Some world records last longer because world record attempts are rare.

Kiptum and Boulami did not dominate their events like the other all time greats dominated more competitive events.

Doping violations are a big deal, regardless of event. Referring to an event as weak is a reflection of the best times of an event with few world record attempts, but it doesn't make doping violations a smaller deal.

how does that work? wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

The rate of kinetics. No, it's just a bit more. This is not hard to understand. At least not for me.

Your incessant "superhuman" and "human limits" are made up. Stop it.

It's called Thermoregulation. Look it up.

Hicham el Gerrouj didn't need a higher VO2 max than normal to run 3.26. This is what you don't seem to grasp.

This is why you believe doping gives superhuman energy kinetics. There is no such thing.

I think you need to look it up. What is a " normal" VO2 max? About 45? How many people overheat in a 1500?

You keep telling me I believe in superhuman energy kinetics. But you're making that up.

Back to the lab, yo.

rekrunner wrote:

Kiptum and Boulami did not dominate their events like the other all time greats dominated more competitive events.

.

It's kind of hard to dominate when you're sitting out a ban. Try to think.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Kiptum and Boulami did not dominate their events like the other all time greats dominated more competitive events.

It's kind of hard to dominate when you're sitting out a ban. Try to think.

I think you don't win an argument without substance on the basis of benefit of the doubt.

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

It's kind of hard to dominate when you're sitting out a ban. Try to think.

I think you don't win an argument without substance on the basis of benefit of the doubt.

There's no argument that they were sitting out just when they started to show their dominance. Thanks to the sweet dope, no doubt.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

There's no argument that they were sitting out just when they started to show their dominance. Thanks to the sweet dope, no doubt.

It's another argument of "coulda, woulda".

This is not a substitute for a lack of concrete substantive arguments.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

It's called Thermoregulation. Look it up.

Hicham el Gerrouj didn't need a higher VO2 max than normal to run 3.26. This is what you don't seem to grasp.

This is why you believe doping gives superhuman energy kinetics. There is no such thing.

I think you need to look it up. What is a " normal" VO2 max? About 45? How many people overheat in a 1500?

You keep telling me I believe in superhuman energy kinetics. But you're making that up.

Back to the lab, yo.

Normal for a skinny male runner is 70. Ask JD

el Gerrouj had speed and endurance but not the stocky build of a high VO2max person. Thre are people walking around who have a naturally high VO2max but poor athletic fitness.

The reason vdot goes up to 85 is because some people have a VO2max of 85.

how does that work? wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

I think you need to look it up. What is a " normal" VO2 max? About 45? How many people overheat in a 1500?

You keep telling me I believe in superhuman energy kinetics. But you're making that up.

Back to the lab, yo.

Normal for a skinny male runner is 70. Ask JD

el Gerrouj had speed and endurance but not the stocky build of a high VO2max person. Thre are people walking around who have a naturally high VO2max but poor athletic fitness.

The reason vdot goes up to 85 is because some people have a VO2max of 85.

You ask him. Then tell him to modify his tables.

Cool that you can tell VO2 max by looking at someone. You could be a Carny.

In short, you don't know Jack.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Such an elaborate smokescreen to avoid explaining how all those other performance enhancing stimulants you listed are not banned.

That is because you talked about the supposed importance between "mere potential" versus "perceptibly significant", and not about why some PEDs are not banned.

I didn't realize that there you were so confused by this, as I figured you must already know the criteria used by WADA -- performance enhancement is neither necessary nor sufficient to ban a substance.

After witnessing your exchange with Aragon, it's become crystal clear that you don't yet understand the plain language criteria published by WADA.

Performance enhancement is neither "necessary nor sufficient" to ban a substance? So WADA is only a public health body, not an anti-cheating fairness in sport enforcer - and I wonder just what do those apparently empty words "against the spirit of sport" mean? A chivalric code?

Of course WADA doesn't care about doping. You don't. As far as you're concerned, doping doesn't enhance performance. Not for your elite African distance runners - who nevertheless dope like crazy.

If you take your cue from Arogant then you are also receptive to an argument based on a false premise, that athletes will be willing to dope even if the odds are low that it will help them. The odds aren't low and there is no evidence they are.

It is quite a burden he has assumed; to be the defender against every possible doping accusation., no matter how likely. The contortions he has to go through would impress a circus performer.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

Normal for a skinny male runner is 70. Ask JD

el Gerrouj had speed and endurance but not the stocky build of a high VO2max person. Thre are people walking around who have a naturally high VO2max but poor athletic fitness.

The reason vdot goes up to 85 is because some people have a VO2max of 85.

You ask him. Then tell him to modify his tables.

Cool that you can tell VO2 max by looking at someone. You could be a Carny.

In short, you don't know Jack.

He did the measurements over many years and found that elite athletes' oxygen uptake numbers varied a lot.

So did other researchers. Why don't you take a look?

how does that work? wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

You ask him. Then tell him to modify his tables.

Cool that you can tell VO2 max by looking at someone. You could be a Carny.

In short, you don't know Jack.

He did the measurements over many years and found that elite athletes' oxygen uptake numbers varied a lot.

So did other researchers. Why don't you take a look?

I did. There was no mention of skinny guys being stuck at 70.

And doping boosts them. Which is why people take the good stuff.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Performance enhancement is neither "necessary nor sufficient" to ban a substance? So WADA is only a public health body, not an anti-cheating fairness in sport enforcer - and I wonder just what do those apparently empty words "against the spirit of sport" mean? A chivalric code?

Of course WADA doesn't care about doping. You don't. As far as you're concerned, doping doesn't enhance performance. Not for your elite African distance runners - who nevertheless dope like crazy.

If you take your cue from Arogant then you are also receptive to an argument based on a false premise, that athletes will be willing to dope even if the odds are low that it will help them. The odds aren't low and there is no evidence they are.

I'm not surprised you wonder at the meaning of words.

WADA's mission, and the meaning of "sport of the sport" can also be found at WADA's website.

I take my cues directly from firsthand sources like WADA's website, and historical facts, such as all-time performances.

Armstronglivs wrote:

It is quite a burden he has assumed; to be the defender against every possible doping accusation., no matter how likely. The contortions he has to go through would impress a circus performer.

I'm just an observer of a tangled web that has been weaved over decades.

Because some doping works for some people in some events under some conditions, doesn't mean we can see the emporer's clothes.