8/10 to the OP
8/10 to the OP
1955 wrote:
You let me know when someone else makes the Olympic team as a junior in HS, then wins the national championship AND sets an AR as a senior. Even if he didn't go on to set 4 WR in the following 2 years he'd be one of the best Americans ever.
I think he & Lindgren set the bar so high that people who weren't alive then simply can't comprehend how good they were, not just against other HS runners but against world class runners.
It's actually amazing how precise the OP was in hitting the nerve of so many posters like this...
OP: Jim Ryun was not America's greatest runner. He may have been world class as a high schooler, but only managed to do so because the competition he faced in the 1960s was neither deep nor particularly great.
Letsrun Posters: NO! JIM RYUN WAS THE BEST BECAUSE HE WAS WORLD CLASS IN THE 1960s!!!!!
7 pages and 120+ posts?
The OP split the messageboard in half
Ryun was the best of his time. It's his potential to have been so much better with 'modern coaching' that fascinates people.
The comparison of conditions, equipment and the like has gotten out of hand. Cinder / dirt tracks are probably .5 slower than most synthetic surfaces, except Mondo tracks which I think are possibly .6 - .7 faster.
Everything is pure conjecture. Look at least year's Olympic final in the 800? Nigel Amos (he's no junior, btw, lol) runs 1:41.73. What if Rudisha had a rabbit to chase like the one he presented to the rest of the field, himself? What if Sebastian Coe, running 1:41 almost 30 years ago had a rabbit to chase the whole way - or even one to chase on the day he first ran 1:42? Or Kipketer having a rabbit like that? ALL of the WR holders of the past could have run faster.
Look at the times put up by runners in so-called "Dream Miles" when a good rabbit launches the field into orbits most of the runners have never experienced. That goes back to Elliot setting his mile record in Dublin, or Steve Scott taking it right out to try and burn off Seb Coe in '79, Coe's first mile record. Most of the field ran out of their heads. Ryun never really experienced that at his peak. Keino took off after a slow first lap in '67 in L.A., in lousy weather (stadium temperature was 97 degrees, even hotter on the track) and Ryun was the kind of runner who would literally tie up from no competition, kind of like Steve Ovett, who would let up but really wasn't capable of monstrous effort, pulling all of his strength and speed out of a hat without someone breathing down his neck.
Ryun called his 3:51.1 the "...easiest race I had ever run." He had lots more left. How much? Who knows? Sure, he was physically capable of sub 3:50. But he didn't do it, due to circumstances much beyond his control, or situations he didn't want to change (coach). Then illness and pressure took their toll. Walker was the first under 3:50 and that's the way it goes. Maybe Ryun was the most naturally talented of all the record holders as Roger Bannister even said, but that's conjecture also.
Greatest ever? On pure records (big meets) and WRs, then you have to go with Coe or El G. El G's shelf full of World Champ Golds and a Gold and Silver from the Olys are superb, and Coe won the 1500 twice, along with two 800 Silvers. People almost forget Ryun did medal, a Silver at altitude. They also forget that Keino showed that Kenyans could gain at the 1500 at altitude, much like some sea level 800 runners could gain at altitude, like Ralph Doubell.
I do think Ryun had freakish talent, and was the equal or likely better of anyone before or since at the 1500/mile. I don't think he had whatever "it" is though to run the 800 like Coe. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's a gut feeling. Which is what a lot of others here use to form their opinions. ; )
Ryun was an all-time great, leave it at that. Having met Ryun in person, I can tell you he doesn't waste time on this type of thing. He did say he wished he had tried some races with fast early pacing, but it wasn't the way things were generally done. Most races you were out there to win, so it was wait and kick. This is where El G, Coe and others are remarkable in their grit, being able to plow along without anyone near them.
Ryun's 3:55.3 in HS was a better run than Webb's HS record I believe, but Ryun did not do that on cinders. It was on Grasstex I think.
Snell's remark on grass being faster than some other surfaces strikes me as being a good observation. Think of how 'springy' and fast some golf courses are, lol.
A very thorough, realistic and analytical synopsis.
Makes a change to read the thoughts of someone with a rational outlook.
Thanks for sharing!
The Rocket. wrote:
Also, while I'm at it :), I want to add that I am not trying to say that Alan Webb accomplished more in his career than Jim Ryun. Obviously Jim Ryun ran a world record and got a silver medal in the Olympics, which is more than Webb can say. My only argument is that if you were to somehow insert Jim Ryun in peak form to race Alan Webb when Webb ran 3:46, I don't think Ryun would stand a chance.
I'm sorry if this offends y'all.
I forgot to add that the trolling is hilarious. No one should be offended, even if this poster were serious, and one can't be sure that he is.
Even funnier is the fact that world class runners don't even bother thinking about this stuff, but trolls toss it out there, and the crowd goes wild.
And Ryun would have whipped Webb's ass. LOL
Seriously, who knows? Who cares? Different eras. Different goals for the runners to shoot for.
Not hyped. It was a different time. But the three things as a HS athlete Ryan, and the third was important which some modern athletes lack. They are
1. a strong will (a belief that they can do it)
2. prime coaching
3. a genuine spiritual belief ("Run for God" whereas G.Lingren's was "Run to inspire others".)
When I read his bio in high school I thought (ignorantly) that
believing in God was just a front years late you find out a spiritual belief does wonders.
Ryun 3.51
Ryun on modern track: 3:49
Ryun on modern track plus better coaching (Lydiard) 3:46
Ryun on modern track, better coaching, plus EPO: 3:39.
Nobody better. Ever.
78r wrote:
Nobody better. Ever.
Absolutely!! No doubt!! Case Closed!!
1:44 nearly 50 years ago.
3:51 solo on dirt in africa heat.
Sea level runner taking silver at 8000 feet, in a fast-fast race.
I'd say he was pretty damn great.
[quote]Moe's Tavern wrote:
God points. Where would the OP be in his argument with Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio or Jackie Robinson? The people hit the balls out of the park!!
They didn't compete against the best black pitchers and couldn't be compared to great black hitters, so they should be irrelevant?
Deanouk wrote:You're right. Clarke has spoken off it being 1 sec per lap, but also of it being 1/2 a second per lap. It very much depends on the condition of the track, the weather and the distance of the race
he says after years of thought in vid
it is 1s/lap
that's his final answer
On a wet, turfed up cinder track in a 10k, then it is probably worth 1 sec per lap +. But on a warm day on a dry, well kept track for an 800 or Mile, it's more like 1/2 sec per lap
nonsense
it's 1s/lap on a dry day with pristine dirt
I have heard and read many athletes and statisticians offering 1/2 a sec per lap conversion from cinders to synthetic
idiot
find one guy who has as many wrs as ron over as many different distances for an opinion
ron is best qualified guy to comment
Coe states it here, 2min 10 secs into the programme:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIVZyLTC5cAAnd he should know, as he regularly trained and raced on a cinder track at his Uni, Loughborough, which was cinders up to 1983
learn to listen
he says "conservatively" 0.5s/lap all the way to 2 - 3s/lap for poorer tracks
And Snell is on record as saying that a well kept grass track was faster than a well kept cinder track, and could be as fast as a synthetic one
drivel
he never said grass was as fast as synthetic
how woud he know ???
he quit after '65 & 1st major synthetic track of note was mexico
The world records didn't just automatically tumble by a sec per lap from 400 upwards when the tracks changed over from cinders to synthetic
because the 1500/5/10k guys in early to mid-'70s were rubbish compared to likes of ryun/keino/ron/etc/era
the only 3 guys in early-'70s who were anywhere close to them were kipkurgat/bayi & a doped viren
it wasn't 'til rono in '78 when we had a distance guy as good as ron & 800/1500 had to wait another year for some clockings anywhere near worthy of '60s guys
I do disagree with you though about a head to head between Webb and Ryun. I would have to say over 1500/ 1 mile, that I would expect a peak Ryun to beat Webb in any kind of race.I would expect a peak 1967 Ryun to be capable of running very close to 3:30 and possibly under it (but none of this 3:24 rubbish)
idiot
he ran that 1500 only really hard in last 300 after a jog for initial 300m, followed 1 quick lap from keino which was still cruising pace for ryun, slowed in penultimate lap, & waited to see what keino had on last lap before blasting him away
he spent start of race at the back getting no drafting, ran wide in lane 2 for the 2nd bend, adding 3 to 4m extra distance run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBXu_K6bp8Eeven his drafting is lacking
there is little at start right at back, none whilst chasing keino out in 2nd lane & even upto 1200m
even if he did tail keino directly ( he didn't - there was a gap ), you get lot less drafting for a 6'2 guy shadowing a 5'9 one
his drafting advantage in this race is little
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDQmutyCVQMshows his lane 2 running better & the observation despite getting gapped by 20m+ in last 300, keino wasn't giving up & finished hard even dipping to the line
keino didn't give up
he got slaughtered
a 3'33.1 in those brutal conditions/dirt track with only a serious effort in last 300 is hugely below 3'30 on a '70s track
to consider ryun no better than the likes of of a tim kiptanui/laban rotich or chebseba is utterly ludicrous
he'd have squashed these guys like proverbial steamroller over a bug
for 1500 and around 3:46 for the mile, on a synthetic track
try more like 3'41
As for finishing kicks, there is no comparison. Ryun's was one of the most deadly ever seen over the mile.
the deadliest
contemporary german broadsheet gives 49.4 in a 3'38 with a 36.4 finish !!!
this is entirely in keeping with other reports that he was behind the 2 big-time germans between 400 - 300 out, they formed a "barricade" preventing him passing, so he had to run wide into outer lane to pass them at 300 out & blitzed it
Bannister asked Coe what would a conversion from.cinders be worth "on a day like this", meaning a cold, damp English spring day. It is to this which Coe said, "conservatively, half a second a lap".
You can bet on a hot Californian summer's day it ain't going to be any more than that.
A contemporary German broadsheet may well have published 49.4, but that doesn't make it so. Other contemporary reports from journalists that were there gave it as 50.6. Large discrepancy.
Contemporary accounts gave Aouita's last 100 in Nice 1500 in 85 as 11.7, but anyone with sense (of course you agree with it) knew this was wrong, as later proved to be.
So contemporary accounts do not mean accurate accounts. I know someone who has seen a video of the race and he timed it at just inside 51.
3:41 Is risible.
Give It Arest wrote:Ryun was the best of his time. It's his potential to have been so much better with 'modern coaching' that fascinates people
no
no one said anything about "modern coaching"
anyone with a clue is only talking about '67 ryun given opportunity to run on a '70s synthetic with excellent, even pacing to the bell ( or a 49-flat in a 800 ) on a warmish oslo or zurich evening
The comparison of conditions, equipment and the like has gotten out of hand. Cinder / dirt tracks are probably .5 slower than most synthetic surfaces
nonsense
try 1s/lap as per greatest wr breaker of modern time - ron
except Mondo tracks which I think are possibly .6 - .7 faster
more nonsense
iaaf have had speed limits on tracks since before '91
tracks are not faster - unless illegally busting rules like tokyo '91 & almost certainly atlanta
it is 65% energy return
Everything is pure conjecture. Look at least year's Olympic final in the 800? Nigel Amos (he's no junior, btw, lol) runs 1:41.73. What if Rudisha had a rabbit to chase like the one he presented to the rest of the field, himself? What if Sebastian Coe, running 1:41 almost 30 years ago had a rabbit to chase the whole way - or even one to chase on the day he first ran 1:42? Or Kipketer having a rabbit like that? ALL of the WR holders of the past could have run faster
classic wr attempt is pacer to 400
nothing more
in fact, rudy's & nijel's times gain precedence for being in a global with being 3rd race within few days & not fully rested as they woud for a euro circuit chase
Look at the times put up by runners in so-called "Dream Miles" when a good rabbit launches the field into orbits most of the runners have never experienced. That goes back to Elliot setting his mile record in Dublin, or Steve Scott taking it right out to try and burn off Seb Coe in '79, Coe's first mile record. Most of the field ran out of their heads. Ryun never really experienced that at his peak
why woud he have to ???
he was a level above anyone else that we've have not seen to this day
he didn't have to scratch the surface in early laps
Keino took off after a slow first lap in '67 in L.A., in lousy weather (stadium temperature was 97 degrees, even hotter on the track) and Ryun was the kind of runner who would literally tie up from no competition, kind of like Steve Ovett, who would let up but really wasn't capable of monstrous effort, pulling all of his strength and speed out of a hat without someone breathing down his neck
utter nonsense
as a 19y ole kid, not anywhere close to his 20y ole prime, he ran the 800 wr when ill, forcing a slow start & fortunate pick-up in 2nd lap & he'd run a 800 prelim just a coupla hours before !
this tells us he had mental ability to run wr when physically below-par & even more fatigued from a prelim
that is an iron-will
Ryun called his 3:51.1 the "...easiest race I had ever run." He had lots more left. How much? Who knows? Sure, he was physically capable of sub 3:50. But he didn't do it, due to circumstances much beyond his control, or situations he didn't want to change (coach). Then illness and pressure took their toll. Walker was the first under 3:50 and that's the way it goes. Maybe Ryun was the most naturally talented of all the record holders as Roger Bannister even said, but that's conjecture also
eh ???
conjecture is what message boards are about
state an opinion - definitively
if not, just stick to looking at all-time lists
otherwise, we can just call schult greatest chucker of all time despite alekhna, kanter, or even harting
They also forget that Keino showed that Kenyans could gain at the 1500 at altitude, much like some sea level 800 runners could gain at altitude, like Ralph Doubell
they didn't
keino got cost something like 1/2 dozen secs for altitude - he maybe been in 3'27 shape - inferior to benie or noah but damn close
ralph something like 1s - he probably was in low-1'43 shape in a perfect sea-level race with pacing to bell
I do think Ryun had freakish talent, and was the equal or likely better of anyone before or since at the 1500/mile. I don't think he had whatever "it" is though to run the 800 like Coe. Maybe I'm wrong
you are
see circumstances of his 800wr above
only a fool woud believe ryun's mental capacity was less bulletproof than nijel of 1'41.73 acclaim
but it's a gut feeling. Which is what a lot of others here use to form their opinions. ; )
you better get that colonoscopy
Ryun was an all-time great, leave it at that. Having met Ryun in person, I can tell you he doesn't waste time on this type of thing. He did say he wished he had tried some races with fast early pacing, but it wasn't the way things were generally done. Most races you were out there to win, so it was wait and kick
& i met keino a lot, decades ago
he was quite clear that ryun was by a long way the greatest runner he had ever seen - & he'd run against ron, jipcho/vassala, knew kiprugut/kipkurgat & seen ralph
he woudn't even have lined up for mexico 1500 if he'd got the gold in either/& the 10k/5k
he didn't think he had any chance of the 1500 but kenyan pressure for him to bring a flat race race gold was crushing ( even from all the way from jomo ) - 3k sc not really an event anyone cared about - even kenya
he "winged" the 1500 out of desperation, not any plan
everything had been geared to the 5k, but to this day he doesn't "believe" he couda lost to gammoudi
( ask yourself - how does the former 5k wr holder who maybe been in 3'27 shape in mexico, lose a sprint in a slow 5k to a guy who never in his whole career ran close to keino's dirt track pb ??? )
This is where El G, Coe and others are remarkable in their grit, being able to plow along without anyone near them
nonsense
you run against what you got
i'd taken cruz in '84 v coe '81, but coe had no one able to challenge him between '79 - '84
( albeit ovett couda gone quick - at least low-1'43 - into 1'42s is a situation i'd previously dismissed, but nijel's run makes me re-consider this )
coe never won a global gold over 800 & never buried the 1500/mile mark
hicham ran that 3'26wr but his next best was in close race v bernie who couda got even closer than coupla tenths behind if not for some clipping on last bend
his mile wr was also a dog-fight
Ryun's 3:55.3 in HS was a better run than Webb's HS record I believe, but Ryun did not do that on cinders. It was on Grasstex I think
no
grasstex, mulch of dirt/tyre shreds, was very new & in terre haute for '66 wr of 800
he ran that 3'55 in san diego - dirt
Snell's remark on grass being faster than some other surfaces strikes me as being a good observation. Think of how 'springy' and fast some golf courses are, lol.
he said only grass v dirt
not grass v synthetic
even for grass, we are not talking the perth or brisbane or kingsmead or sabina park pitches, which are the truely fastest surfaces steamrollered into oblivion
Deanouk wrote:Bannister asked Coe what would a conversion from.cinders be worth "on a day like this", meaning a cold, damp English spring day. It is to this which Coe said, "conservatively, half a second a lap"
idiot
he gave casual, intimidated reply to the sport's greatest legend
it's obvious he meant 2 - 3s/lap for that wet track in autumn/winter
he likely meant "0.5s+/lap" in good weather - summer
or does your peabrain think coe ran flat-out dirt tts in autumn/winter & the next week on synthetic ???
coe nor anyone else in their right mind wouda run a flat out tt ( if they did ) until well into spring
You can bet on a hot Californian summer's day it ain't going to be any more than that
no
it woud be minimum 1s/lap
ryun was usually last act on a dirt track smashed up by a plethora of races before, including the high-school/junior races that euro meets at time didn't include on same programme
A contemporary German broadsheet may well have published 49.4, but that doesn't make it so
it is best account
Other contemporary reports from journalists that were there gave it as 50.6. Large discrepancy
name them & post them
give one with a '67 stamp & authority of a broadsheet - another german is of most respect
until then
49.4, held up by "barricade" of german wall & 36.4 finish
So contemporary accounts do not mean accurate accounts
idiot
for 400 or 300 times they do
they ran on 400 tracks in germany in '67
I know someone who has seen a video of the race and he timed it at just inside 51
i contacted someone who told me they saw the vid & got it at just over 49, with low-36
go get your boy to look again at it - & time the last 300 to compare to my source
3:41 Is risible
idiot
it's an ungenerous value
ventolin^3 wrote:
Deanouk wrote:You're right. Clarke has spoken off it being 1 sec per lap, but also of it being 1/2 a second per lap. It very much depends on the condition of the track, the weather and the distance of the racehe says after years of thought in vid
it is 1s/lap
that's his final answer
On a wet, turfed up cinder track in a 10k, then it is probably worth 1 sec per lap +. But on a warm day on a dry, well kept track for an 800 or Mile, it's more like 1/2 sec per lap
nonsense
it's 1s/lap on a dry day with pristine dirt
That is your opinion and the opinion of one athlete who put no specifics on the context of what he said and who himself said 0.5 secs in another interview.
Plenty of others in the sport have claimed 0.5 secs per lap for a well kept track on a good day. There is no scientific proof to claim as FACT (as you do) any definite time conversion. All dirt tracks were different, and the age & condition of the track, not to mention the weather and distance of the race, would all have affected the conversion time. So any blanket claim is not reliable and shows a lack of practical analysis.
Because there is NOT one guy that Jim Ryun would not have drilled off this pace
Some folks have NO idea how good he was
Bayer? really?
Ryan Hill?
Jim Ryun had already run 3:5x and 1:44.x by then 45 years ago
ventolin^3 wrote:
contemporary german broadsheet gives 49.4 in a 3'38 with a 36.4 finish !!!
this is entirely in keeping with other reports that he was behind the 2 big-time germans between 400 - 300 out, they formed a "barricade" preventing him passing, so he had to run wide into outer lane to pass them at 300 out & blitzed it
No it isn't in keeping with other reports.
Almost all other reports from statisticians that were there gave 50.6 as his last lap.
- T&FN at the time reported 50.6
- Cordner Nelson ("The Milers") quoted 50.6 (P.332)
- Roberto Quercetani ( founder of the ATFS, compiler of World Rankings) in his book, "A History of Modern Track & Field Athletics, 1860-1990" also quoted 50.6. (P.159)
Just because one German publication referred to 49.4, doesn't make it so. The consensus was 50.6.
As an example of how inaccurate splits for Ryun have been in print by various sources before, one need look no further than his 2nd Mile WR, where the IAAF and several other reference books claim his last lap was 52.5.
This is not only wrong, it is markedly so. He goes through the bell in 2:57.3, which gives a last lap of 53.8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NyRbNZ4vOEIf so called experts can knock 1.3 secs off what he actually ran in this race and print it as fact, when there is video evidence in the public domain, then there is an equally likely (nay, probable) chance that the closing splits for the Dusseldorf race were wrong.
Certainly 49.4 is wrong.
ventolin^3 wrote:
Other contemporary reports from journalists that were there gave it as 50.6. Large discrepancyname them & post them
give one with a '67 stamp & authority of a broadsheet - another german is of most respect
until then
49.4, held up by "barricade" of german wall & 36.4 finish
Have named them above, They are specialised athletic periodicals, accounts from the foremost statisticians from the past 50 years.
A sports journalist from a German paper isn't going to have a clue compared to an athletics statistician.
Broadsheets published Aouita's last 100 split in his 3:29.71 as 11.7 at the time. Video evidence showed this to be out by over 1.3 secs.
Where is the video on Youtube of Ryun's run to analyse?
ventolin^3 wrote:
i contacted someone who told me they saw the vid & got it at just over 49, with low-36
go get your boy to look again at it - & time the last 300 to compare to my source
ROFL. Really? How convenient! ;0)
Well you certainly kept that quiet all these years. I was told 2 years ago by someone who had seen the video in the UNi archives that his last 400 was just under 51 and the last 300 was over 37. And I have stated that on here and elsewhere several times. You just so happen to have got in touch with someone at this exact moment? LOL