i've lost a lot of respect for ventolin on this thread. he has resorted to name calling and illiogical analysis to try to prove a defunct point.
i've lost a lot of respect for ventolin on this thread. he has resorted to name calling and illiogical analysis to try to prove a defunct point.
ventolin wrote:
lower calibre 1500 guys - what's their best pb ?
bernie - big calibre guy, 3'26, double gold
that "calibre" looks for best in a zurich 800 against a global 800 champ/wr holder, off 49.5 - 50.0, not scuffling off a 51++ in a bunch of 1'44/1'45ers at dumpcrapio
ventolin, I suspect you have realised you are wrong and are just talking gibberish to bait us, but I will humour you.
The point is all those guys managed to beat 1.46 with relatively little effort, in smaller meets, without Bucher.. If Lagat could have he would have done so too, in many of the 800's he ran in similar meets.
I am reluctant to get involved in this thread, but it is obvious to me that Ventolin, although he is a jerk, is actually correct here.
Let's look at the facts. If Lagat was a 3:26 guy with only 1:46, then I see him as the man with the best chance to break Komen's 3K.
Komen ran 3:29, likely off 1:48 at best.
ElG was probably similar to Lagat at 800. Do you really believe ElG couldn't have run 1:44 any time he chose?
Look at Lagat. He just ran 1:46,3:32,and 13:03 this year. When he ran 3:26, he certainly could run a much faster 800 than this year. Let's get real.
but thats the point he tried many times and did not run faster than that, thats the anomaly of Bernard Lagat. I don't think we can automatically credit him with faster.
El G didn't race it so there is still some doubt, Lagat did race it often enough to ( in my mind ) remove the doubt.
I think it is obvious that Lagat did not put as much stock in these 800s. Are you aware that Seb Coe has a 7:54i pb for 3000 meters and a 14:06 pb for 5000? It means nothing.
Why is it obvious? as I mentioned early he has run quite a few 800's, at a reasonable level. Many people who also do not "put much stock" in the 800, and who are slower than Lagat in the 1500 have still managed to run faster than him at 800, despite racing it even less than Lagat.
If Seb Coe had run 5kms all over europe for a ~12 year career you may have a point, but he didn't ( as far as I'm aware).
B. Lagat ran a 1:47.07 indoors when his outdoor pb was only 3:34.48. Do you really believe he could improve his 1500 personal best by over 8 seconds and not knock a minimum of 2 seconds off his 800, which would give him 1:45 indoors, and therefore, 1:44 outdoors? I'm not saying he could have run 1:42, but he could have for sure run 1:44.
well normal logic would suggest that, but I don't think we should give him that benefit when he has run so many, in pretty good nick, over a long career.
I also think it is risky using indoor / outdoor scenarios with Lagat cause he is such a phenomenal indoor runner his outdoor equivalents may not be much if any faster.
jingle bowels wrote:I also think it is risky using indoor / outdoor scenarios with Lagat cause he is such a phenomenal indoor runner his outdoor equivalents may not be much if any faster.
then where was the 3'26i for this "phenomenal" indoor guy ???
eaddiey wrote:
I think it is obvious that Lagat did not put as much stock in these 800s. Are you aware that Seb Coe has a 7:54i pb for 3000 meters and a 14:06 pb for 5000? It means nothing.
Lagat run 20+ 800m, many on the circuit in Europe, and didn't manage to break 1:46.
Coe ran ONE 5000m in his entire career ~ 14:06 in May in Yorkshire Champs, where he lapped most runners. It was basically a training run.
He ran seven 3000m between 79-89 (less than 1 a year). All but one were indoors, on the wooden floors of Cosford, in a time when there was no indoor circuit. He wasn't looking for a time, just a winter workout to keep a competitive edge.
Distance road runs, road relay legs and training sessions witnessed by national coaches, gives a lot of evidence to support the fact he was capable of much quicker than his 3k & 5k pbs.
Lagat SHOULD have been capable of running 1:44 easily, I agree, based on what he did at 1500m alone, but the fact he never got anywhere near it, despite 20+ races, is what makes him such an anomaly.
eaddiey wrote:
B. Lagat ran a 1:47.07 indoors when his outdoor pb was only 3:34.48. Do you really believe he could improve his 1500 personal best by over 8 seconds and not knock a minimum of 2 seconds off his 800, which would give him 1:45 indoors, and therefore, 1:44 outdoors? I'm not saying he could have run 1:42, but he could have for sure run 1:44.
Lagat run 1:47.07 indoors in Feb '99, the season he went on to run 3:30.56. So, in essence, from that season he went on to improve his 1500m best by 4 secs and his 800m by 1 sec.
In 1983, Aouita run pb's of 1:44.38 and 3:32.54 within weeks of each other. His 1500m pb was to improve by over 3 secs (and he was probably capable of 3:28 in '85), but his 800m only improved by 0.5 (despite focussing mainly on this event in 1988), so there is a precedent in someone improving their 1500m time markedly with minimal improvements in the 800m.
How he was able to run a component 800m in a 1500m in 1:47.9, but not break 1:46.0 in a straight 800m is a mystery to me!
It's fine if you want to spin the facts, but the fact is that B. Lagat ran a 1:47.07i when his pb was 3:34.48. The fact is that he did run 3:30.56 SIX months later. You can bet that when he ran the 1:47i that he was not in 3:30 shape.
In fact, Lagat ran a 3:55.65i two weeks after the 1:47.07i, if you need a further refutation of your nonsense. This is not indicative of 3:30 fitness.
You are the one encouraging us not to stick the facts.. the fact is Lagat never broke 1.46 despite many attempts, he has shown he can run 1.46 in 3.27 shape and 1.46 in 3.34 shape, this is not news.
He has never shown unequivocally that he can run any faster.
Ventolin is correct, you really are stupid. I suppose you believe ElG, who ran 1:47.18 a few weeks before running 3:31.16, couldn't have run faster than 1:47. Get a brain.
eaddiey wrote:
It's fine if you want to spin the facts, but the fact is that B. Lagat ran a 1:47.07i when his pb was 3:34.48. The fact is that he did run 3:30.56 SIX months later. You can bet that when he ran the 1:47i that he was not in 3:30 shape.
If you want to take that view, fine. But he ran 3:34 SEVEN months before his indoor 1:47, so it can be argued that this time, equally tells us nothing about what sort of form he was in the Spring of '99.
eaddiey wrote:
Ventolin is correct, you really are stupid. I suppose you believe ElG, who ran 1:47.18 a few weeks before running 3:31.16, couldn't have run faster than 1:47. Get a brain.
And you have shown yourself to be about as patient as ventolin before getting frustrated..
Look, I am being stubborn on this because I don't think it is reasonable to automatically assume he could run faster when he raced it heaps in good races.
El G hardly raced the 800 so is not a good example, if you want to use him a better example would be his 3km.. would you credit him with a 7.20 or 7.21?? Kevin Sullivan has PB's of 1.47 and 3.31 so clearly that is feasible, and is to a lesser extent a bit like Lagat in his profile.
At the end of the day where does it end? Its all very well to speculate what x athlete would have run for y distance but if they have run it a lot, then I think sooner or later you have to put a line in the sand and say that's about what that athlete was worth.
jingle bowels wrote:
[quoute]El G hardly raced the 800 so is not a good example, if you want to use him a better example would be his 3km.. would you credit him with a 7.20 or 7.21??
definitely
his 7'23 was off abominable pacing - very slow 1st km & brutally hard 2nd 2km for 4'53 & nothing left for last 1km
easily 7'20/7'21 off even-pace
Kevin Sullivan has PB's of 1.47 and 3.31 so clearly that is feasible, and is to a lesser extent a bit like Lagat in his profile
there were 5y between 1'47 & 3'31 - year he ran 1'47, he went 3'35
in his 3'31 year, he probably was at 1'45 - you can try 1'45/3'31 for 3k/5k for yourself...
middle distance wrote:As usual, you jump to the wrong conclusion and illustrate how patronising you really are.
There's no need for me to do the conversions you suggest. I simply took off the 1.2 secs standard conversion that's been used for decades to give Cram's 1600m time of 3:45.1 and divided it by 4 to give his average time per 400m (not 440yds) which works out at 56.28. It's irrelevant that I was comparing a mile to a 1500m, because I was illustrating the point (quite straightforwardly) that Cram's last 400m (53.2 for last 440yd ~ c. 52.9/53.0) was proportionately faster compared to the average pace of the race, than Lagat's last 400m in 53.5 (where his average 400m over 3.75 laps, opposed to Cram's 4, was 55.02)
Thus, Cram's run was far less efficient than was Lagat's. I.e it wasn't such even paced. I don't know how to make that point any clearer!
you seem to have an idiot's grasp of logic
i gave a reasonable approximation of cram's 3'46.3 flattened-out for uneven splits of 3'45.5, which allied to his ~ 1'42.5 ability ( flattened out for too fast a 1st lap according to himself ) yields a low-3'28 that day
use that figure for deriving any 400 splits for cram, not some nonsense about looking vaguely at isolated 58 or 56 or 53s splits
then, there is no mention in your drivel of the uneveness of bernie's flattened-out 3'26.3 - 53s last lap & he couda gone even faster on that as on the bend, he visibly quickened up, but imperceptibly balked by hicham & fell back ( it's also mentioned on commentary )
so, he was worth faster on last lap + uneven splits -> his 3'26.3 wouda been much faster flattened out - somewhere in the
3'25.75 - 3'26.00 range
this more-or less offsets any likely advantage that cram wouda got from faster tracks - your suggested 3'27.5
there is still a 1.5 - 1.75s difference between them when both race splits are flattened out + '01 track for cram
What!?
It's not just about the last 400m split in a 1500 or Mile race. It's about the distribution of effort. It would have been just as impressive had Lagat run that 3:26.34 with the first lap in 53.5 and run his slowest 400m ( 56.3) on the last lap
see above
strop drivelling in minutiae - get the big picture - give them estimated flat-out overall times & work with that
Cram and few others would have expected a WR when he went through the bell in 2:53.1
expecting 3'48 when i saw bell-time
Cram's vastly superior 800 and 1000 times show he was much better at handling the endurance immediately after 400m in an 800m race, which is the context of what we were discussing
what is this nonsense supposed to mean ?
he was better between 400 - 500m point in a 800 race ??
as stated endlessly - how many top quality 800 races did he enter in '01/'04 ?
Completely hypothetical, not backed up by any evidence of what Lagat's done over 800m. If he's only run 1:46 off 51, I don't think the idea he'd run sub 1:44 off a 49.5 is even remotely convincing
you are an idiot
a decent 800 runner with possible 3'30/3'32 background can follow a 49.5 with a 3 - 4s slower 2nd lap for 1'42.5 - 1'43.5
only a moron coudn't understand a 3'26 guy woud have a lesser differential, of say 2.5 - 3.5 for 1'42.0 - 1'43.0
I remember vividly that Lagat asked for 1:52 at 800m and 2:48 at 1200m last year in Rieti, in an attempt to break 3:30. The pace was fast, though admittedly not quite what was asked for, but he faded quite badly on the last lap to record 3:32.**
you are seriously trying to make a point with 3'30 pace for a later season unwell bernie, when he has run 3'26 in the past ??
pathetic
No! For a start Cram run 1:43.61 in 1983, NOT '82 as you quoted. His 47.6 relay leg (which would only have been worth around 48.1 for a flat race) was in early October '84, long after his injury problem in June/July. Why go on a Far Eastern tour if he was still injured. I agree he would have been faster in the height of the 85 Summer, but he was never capable of breaking 47 secs for 400m. With his better endurance than most 800m runners, he would only need 47.4 (+4.0) x 2 to reach his 1:42.88 pb.
he coudn't even run mid-1'44 in '85 when you quote this relay leg & ran 2s faster in '85
only an idiot woud believe that relay leg remotely resembles his '85 speed
why he went on far east tour ?
a few $ for running some easy races
as for that formula - it's laughable !
?? I'm not talking about what he has said in his capacity as commentator, but rather through what he said in his own biography, other reference books and AW interviews from the time. What in-depth analysis did you read on him at the time?
& you clearly didn't watch or have access to eurosport in early/mid 90s when a conversation of 400 times came up in an 800 race - he mentioned he didn't really run it often & had no idea how fast he coud go, but certainly thought 47s at least
4:51 certainly wasn't an embarrassing time in the mid '80's and as you said, it was rarely run. It still puts him no. 10 on the all-time list, so it's an exceptional time even for today
eh ?
it's barely 2s faster than the 2k split for komen/hicham
4'51 certainly isn't exceptional nowdays
There wasn't the same obsession with times that exists today, and he certainly didn't have the athletes at his disposal to give him the sort of pace people like EL G benefitted from 15 years later
drivel
i have no idea what you were watching in '80s, but they were plenty obssessed with times, even from '79 when coe broke WRs & forced ovett to chase
then likes of aouita/maree trying virtually week-in-week out tring to break 1500/3k/5k WRs on the circuit & scott for 1500/mile
as for wabbits - again nonsense
they simply went at pace asked - in '80s, 3'30 was target, so 56s laps asked for
hicham was far superior & asked for 55s
if these guys were 3'26 guys in '80s, they wouda asked for 55s pacing, but they weren't, so they didn't
ignore everything ive said here im wrong