When I said speed, I meant ability to run faster over the full distance of a mile, not closing speed. Ryun's kick is probably among the greatest ever for a middle distance runner of his caliber.
When I said speed, I meant ability to run faster over the full distance of a mile, not closing speed. Ryun's kick is probably among the greatest ever for a middle distance runner of his caliber.
Seyta wrote:
What a lot of these posters forget is that Ryun was only world class in HS because in the 1960s, most of the world really couldn't be bothered with competing at all.
I'm quite frankly shocked by your lack of knowledge of the competitive scene in the 1960s.
I guess you couldn't be bothered doing any research.
Typical of today's couch potato generation.
Bad Wigins wrote:
I wonder how many of you have run on these much-maligned dirt and cinder tracks, who assume they're so much slower than modern tracks.
I give Ryun maybe a half second handicap from having to run through the alleged tar and quicksand. 3:50 low instead of 3:50 high. Neither is anywhere near Webb.
moron
try this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2ANRbiiH8&t=25m25simbecile
someone who ran hundreds of races on cinder/dirt tracks and also competed on synthetic
idiot
he gives 1s/lap conversion
moron
what you "think" it may have been worth is irrelevant
imbecile
The Rocket. wrote:
I ran my entire high school and college career on dirt tracks, actually. When they are done up and maintained correctly the difference is not as big as people make it to be.
People are so liberal with their seconds.
Oh a cinders track is worth four seconds.
idiot
1s/lap
No rabbits is worth another 4 seconds.
moron
1s/lap
no one gets rabbiting for 4 laps
rabbiting to bell @ 1s/lap is 3 s
Pollution is worth 3 seconds.
imbecile
try running a race in 95+ degree heat in smog capital of the west
Heat is worth two seconds.
idiot
try running a race in 95+ degree heat in smog capital of the west
He didn't pace it right 3 seconds.
moron
no
learn something about "intrinsic worth"
He didn't have the correct nutrition 3 seconds
imbecile
no
learn something
come on people stop making up wild conversions. If you've ever seen a competitive mile 3 seconds is a looong way.
idiot
you were no doubt in short pants at best when ryun was competing
learn something
fu.cking moron
Thundercats_GO wrote:
Alan Webb is the fastest miler in HS history, that is a fact. He was the first to break 4 indoors and at his first outdoor attempt he crushed Ryun's record. He probably could've gone faster. Ryun was very good, but slower. That is a fact. Sorry this is had for you old farts to accept. Mary Cain is doing things right now that will just add to the list of reasons she's the best HS runner of all time a year from now.
idiot
ryun was capable of at least 3:49 for the mile his senior year
see -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaGDIKoh-g83:58.3 mile
no rabbits
shredded dirt track
massive negative split
ran a qualifying heat the day before
1s/lap for dirt --> '70s synthetic
3:54.3
1s/lap for rabbiting to the bell
3:51.3
evening out splits
3:50
running on fresh legs as opposed to the day after a qualifying heat
3:49
idiot
webb was maybe worth 3:52 flat at best
learn something about intrinsic worth
moron
The Rocket. wrote:
1 second per lap is a convenient conversion that Ron Clarke uses.
Thanks for the video though. I enjoyed it.
You're right. Clarke has spoken off it being 1 sec per lap, but also of it being 1/2 a second per lap. It very much depends on the condition of the track, the weather and the distance of the race.
On a wet, turfed up cinder track in a 10k, then it is probably worth 1 sec per lap +. But on a warm day on a dry, well kept track for an 800 or Mile, it's more like 1/2 sec per lap.
I have heard and read many athletes and statisticians offering 1/2 a sec per lap conversion from cinders to synthetic/
Coe states it here, 2min 10 secs into the programme:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIVZyLTC5cAAnd he should know, as he regularly trained and raced on a cinder track at his Uni, Loughborough, which was cinders up to 1983.
And Snell is on record as saying that a well kept grass track was faster than a well kept cinder track, and could be as fast as a synthetic one.
The world records didn't just automatically tumble by a sec per lap from 400 upwards when the tracks changed over from cinders to synthetic.
I do disagree with you though about a head to head between Webb and Ryun. I would have to say over 1500/ 1 mile, that I would expect a peak Ryun to beat Webb in any kind of race.I would expect a peak 1967 Ryun to be capable of running very close to 3:30 and possibly under it (but none of this 3:24 rubbish) for 1500 and around 3:46 for the mile, on a synthetic track. That is based on his 2 WR runs that year. Webb also had the advantage of slightly better spikes and more opportunities to run fast times.
As for finishing kicks, there is no comparison. Ryun's was one of the most deadly ever seen over the mile.
So you are really claiming that Ryun would have run a 3:35 mile! Do you have any idea how ridiculous your math is.
The Rocket. wrote:
So you are really claiming that Ryun would have run a 3:35 mile! Do you have any idea how ridiculous your math is.
Let's not exaggerate things Rocket. Ryun, however, was most definitely capable of a mid 3:40s (3:46-3:48) mile in my estimation if he had run with the advantage of a rabbit and modern day conditions.
I'd say a well-kept cinders track that was prepared by groundskeeping for a big meet would be 1/2 sec slower than tartan. But your run-of-the-mile dirt track that just sits there at a high school being used every week for dual meets is worth easily one-sec per lap.
Distance Maniac wrote:
The Rocket. wrote:So you are really claiming that Ryun would have run a 3:35 mile! Do you have any idea how ridiculous your math is.
Let's not exaggerate things Rocket. Ryun, however, was most definitely capable of a mid 3:40s (3:46-3:48) mile in my estimation if he had run with the advantage of a rabbit and modern day conditions.
I agree with you. I'll call it 3:47 and stick to my conclusion that in a paced race in both of their primes Webb would win.
drifting wide doesn't do anything if they're already ahead of you.
Pretty sure the 3:51.1 was run as the last race of the evening on a torn up, divot laced surface. A far cry from let's say the surface faced by the field of last Saturdays Bowerman Mile in Eugene. IMHO that 3:51.1 is worth at least 3:48.5 on today's carpets. The 3:33.1 may have been worth 3:47.1...
The Rocket. wrote:
Also, while I'm at it :), I want to add that I am not trying to say that Alan Webb accomplished more in his career than Jim Ryun. Obviously Jim Ryun ran a world record and got a silver medal in the Olympics, which is more than Webb can say. My only argument is that if you were to somehow insert Jim Ryun in peak form to race Alan Webb when Webb ran 3:46, I don't think Ryun would stand a chance.
I'm sorry if this offends y'all.
You must have a least an inkling that you are out of your mind?
jjjjjjjjj wrote:
drifting wide doesn't do anything if they're already ahead of you.
It does plenty if they're on your shoulder on turn 2 and about to pass. Drift out for a second or two and you block them for the whole turn. More effective than blocking on the straight, and isn't obvious from the camera's angle.
someone had to do it wrote:
someone who ran hundreds of races on cinder/dirt tracks and also competed on synthetic
Everyone has their favorite surface, your sample of one means nothing.
Even if Ryun did lose 1 second per lap, his 3:47 would still lose to Webb. You fly-beloved pile of rabbit poop.
But all of that is speculation. The hard facts about Jim Ryun: Four world records in three events, by significant margins; three Olympic appearances; an Olympic silver medal. His solo 3:58.3 mile at his high school state championship is one of the great high school performances of all time in any event as well. Without trying to compare times from different eras, those accomplishments are what makes him "so great". Ryun's times without any adjustments would put him at or near the top of US seasonal lists right now, 46 years later.
msft wrote:
Bad Wigins wrote:All those teen prodigies burn out early. Ryun, Webb, Ngeny, Komen, Budd. They hit their peaks young, but their peak isn't any higher because of that.
They don't all burn out. Slaney hit her peak in 1982-83 and set the world record in the mile in 1985, 12 years after she set her first world record.
Tirunesh Dibaba was a teen prodigy and won a WC Gold in 1983 at age 18. She is still going strong.
Tirunesh Dibaba is 48 years old? She won a WC Gold thirty years ago? Wow - she really is an astonishing talent. And what longevity! No world class male distance runners are still in competition at her age.
Based on her age alone, she has to be the greatest runner of all time.
someone had to do it wrote:
Blablabla Ruyn is the best blablabla
Hello there Ventolins servant
someone had to do it wrote:
moron
idiot
imbecile
moron
idiot
learn something
imbecile
Ventoliiin, ventoliiiiin, ventoliiiiiin
glorpy blab wrote:
Tirunesh Dibaba is 48 years old? She won a WC Gold thirty years ago? Wow - she really is an astonishing talent. And what longevity! No world class male distance runners are still in competition at her age.
Based on her age alone, she has to be the greatest runner of all time.
Are you the only one that did not assume the poster meant to type 2003?