EPO Does Work on Kenyans! Surprise!

just sayin wrote:

http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runners/study-kenyans-get-performance-boost-from-epo

EPO is one of the most popular and effective performance-enhancing drugs for endurance athletes, because it increases the blood's oxygen-carrying capacity.

lol

idn't it funny though wada doping up a bunch of guys and demonstrating how much they can hope to improve performance

great sales pitch like

i wonder did they advise them on evading dope tests while they was at it lol

Yeah, for turning men who run 9:30 for 3000m into men who run 8:45 for 3000m. Who is disputing that? Six weeks of training without EPO can do that.

Net Filter wrote:

Somewhere on the net, and no matter how hard I try I can't find it again, there is a graph that shows the introduction of EPO and the effect on middle and long distance records and how over a short period of time the times fell away dramatically with the introduction of a viable test.

To JR, nothing personal but I wish you would just go away.

This is only the case with the women's records set in Beijing in 1993. The men's world records for 800m, 5000m, 10000m, the steeplechase, half marathon and marathon have all come since the advent of reliable EPO testing. And 35 of the top 50 all-time marks in the men's 5000m have come after 2001.

You want to see a spike and a drop off? Look at Beijing 1993 and the late Cold War era for the throws and women's power events. That's proof positive that doping isn't what it used to be.

just sayin wrote:

so we had 2 guys basically dominate track 5000/10000 for 20 yrs

are we to believe that 2 clean guys wiped the floor with every

epo cheat that lined up against them for 20yrs?

this would be the exact opposite to what happened in cycling where you couldn't win anything without epo once the peleton got hold of it

Graphs showing introduction of EPO and drop in times for 5/10k from the Science of Sport:

There are a couple of things wrong with that graph:

Why exclude all record progression prior to 1975?

In the previous 25 year period, the record went from 13:58.2:36.6 to 13:13.0 - an improvement of 45 seconds, as opposed to the improvement of 29 seconds over the period of the graph.

Why exclude all record progression since 2000?

Both events have had new records set since the advent of reliable EPO testing.

Now, I'm not saying that nobody dopes, nor am I saying that EPO doesn't work, or that it doesn't work on East Africans (there is a very simple counter-argument to Dr. Canova's claim - one that I've never seen anybody make) - what I am saying is that a biased selection of the facts doesn't prove anything.

That graph is completely worthless and could equally be used to prove that modern track surfaces are performance enhancing (were you aware that in 1990 - the exact same date that the graph pinpoints as the watershed for EPO - the IAAF issued new regulations for running surfaces and track design?).

All I'm saying is that taking a biased selection of facts and attributing one - and only one - cause to the change from Point A to Point B is poor science.

just sayin,

you are right.

by the way, the progress of this discussion here is similiar to all other threads regarding doping in kenya.

mountains of proof show that on-site examination in east africa is overdue. the world public is fed up with it.

some don´t like this and continue with publishing stuff and nonsense about epo and differences in endurance sports or try to bring scientific research into ridicule.

I want to clarify my position, since too many people don't understand what I mean.

a) I'm TOTALLY and COMPLETELY against any type of doping. Not only, but my athletes don't get any LEGAL supplement, because I think the mental strength of an athlete can't depend on the idea to have some external support. This was my position with ALL my athletes, of EVERY Country, strong or less strong. If an athlete asks for some help, I repeat, ALSO LEGAL, he is no longer with me in training, because I refuse to work with athletes having this kind of mentality.

b) I fully agree with Antonio : all the discussions about if EPO works or not, and about who can have advantages or not, ARE COMPLETELY A LOSS OF TIME. The reality is that EPO, like other substances, are illegal, so athletes don't have to get them.

c) However, I don't agree the way used for facing this big problem. We live in a CHEMICAL and PHARMACOLOGICAL society, where we have plenty messages in TV explaining we NEED absolutely some support, also if our activity is to be seated all the day, otherwise we cant survive. This is a normal message, and the most part of people thinking everything TV can show is the truth, go to form their mentality following these messages (that are total bullshits, of course are part of the strategy for increasing the number of users, BECAUSE THE PHARMA BUSINESS IS THE THIRD IN THE WORLD). So, the general knowledge about this problem doesn't combine with the reality.

d) I have an EDUCATIONAL behavior about doping. I don't want to scare the athletes speaking about the risks for their health : of course there are, however mostly depending on a factor NEVER considered in the antidoping war : THE DOSAGE. In any medical situation, the dosage of a pharmac is "conditio sine qua non" for knowing if you are inside an area of aid, or inside an area of risk. And this not only about pharmacs, but about other legal but very dangerous human activities, such as smoking or drinking alcohol : one glass of wine can have positive effects, two bottles every day destroy your liver.

And also, I don't want to use moralist aspects, such as who uses doping doesn't respect the "par condicio", that is the possibility to offer the same situation to everybody. This because, practically, this "par condicio" doesn't exist, since is not only connected with doping, but with all the different situations we have in our life. Which par condicio there is for two boys having the same talent, one rich one poor, one living where there is a good coach and good facilities, the other where there is nobody able to help him, with the closest track 100 miles far ? Which par condicio when Ethiopia and Eritrea were in war, and people didn't have food to eat ? And after many years there are still misinformed (and also a little bit stupid) people speaking that 35 years ago American went to defeat Ethiopians, so if now Ethiopians are better is because of doping.

Instead, I want to fight THE IDEA OF DOPING teaching the importance of moral values INSIDE the individual minds. I don't tell to a boy "don't go to plunder a Bank, because when you go outside can find Police aresting you or shooting and you can be killed" (don't get drugs because you can be banned). I want to teach the RESPECT FOR OTHER PEOPLE, FOR THEIR PROPERTIES AND THE FRUITS OF THEIR WORK. I want to create better persons, NOT THREATENING THEM, BUT EDUCATING THEM.

And I NEVER CATCH THIS ASPECT IN THE ACTION OF THE ANTIDOPING AGENCIES.

e) After this preamble, I cannot accept thye widespread idea that ALL THE TOP PERFORMANCES ARE FROM DIRTY ATHLETES, because this means a lack of respect for who is able, in virtue of his talent combined with very hard work, to win in clean way and to beat the records that the most part pof people think not in the human possibilities. I had, and I have, some of these athletes, and, differently from people speaking WITHOUT ANY DIRECT EXPERIENCE (including the researchers of WADA that did this ridicolous research), I well know where it's possible to arrive with training only, completely clean.

f) For that reason I try every time to explain, may be in empiric way, that blood doping doesn't work with the best african at the top of the World. I don't say NOBODY gets doping : I say ALL THE BESTS don't get, and if the bests don't get but somebody running slower gets, or if somebody AFTER getting runs slower than before (such as Kisorio), the logoic conclusion is that DOPING DOESN'T WORK. This is for me a fact : the scientific explanation about WHY doesn't work for these athletes there is not, BECAUSE NOBODY DID ANY RESEARCH INVOLVING THIS SPECIFIC LEVEL. So, our discussion is useless, because in any case blood doping is illegal, as Antonio says. But, at the same time, EVERY FINAL CONCLUSION based on different situations (cyclists, ski crossers, normal people, athletes of medium talent improving a lot, athletes of 1500m when we speak about long distances, researches connected with sick people, etc...) doesn't have ANY SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, because the tested sample is different from the object of the discussion. If I have evidence that is possible to beat WR and to win WCh while clean (for me is a fact I KNOW), nobody has evidence the same athletes could run faster getting EPO.

thanks for the superb analysis. This should make the whiners

and conspiracy theorists think again before they spew

allegations in all directions.

cathal lombard ...obvious like he wadn't fast enough before the epo lol

he was only a 29-30 min guy before he took epo

reliable epo testing 2005 lol...you just stopped takin it 3 days before the test lol

3 days and then you test clean

thats how it was back then in 05

just sayin wrote:

3 days and then you test clean

thats how it was back then in 05

You speak from experience? How did that work out for Lombard and Brahim Boulami?

depends if you're available for ooc testing

they only getting round to setting up 1 mobile test lab for kenya +ethiopia now

just sayin wrote:

depends if you're available for ooc testing

Everyone who is top 30 in the world or a recent medalist needs to be available for out of competition testing.

just sayin wrote:

they only getting round to setting up 1 mobile test lab for kenya +ethiopia now

Go tell that to John Ngugi.

ah look

didn u hear there's a prob with ooc testing in EA like

it's hardly big news

john ngugi

lol i forget his story but i think it was prob innocent enough

but he was pre-epo era

and he was actually a fine athlete with or without peds

ngugi refused to take the test

i'd say he wodn't on nothing anyhow

he was just an exceptional athlete clean anyhow

not even relevant to the debate lol

just sayin wrote:

ah look

didn u hear there's a prob with ooc testing in EA like

it's hardly big news

john ngugi

lol i forget his story but i think it was prob innocent enough

but he was pre-epo era

and he was actually a fine athlete with or without peds

There's very little difference between out of competition testing in East Africa compared to that it America or Europe. The vast majority of out of competition testing is strictly urine. The only difference between East Africa and America and Europe with respect to out of competition testing until recently has been that East Africa's anti-doping testing were all urine-based instead of being nearly all urine-based.

I would welcome blood testing as a much more common component of out of competition (and in competition) testing but I understand that the limited availability of resources makes that difficult to achieve.

this position would be more convincing, if :

- effective and dense blood controls would be standard in kenya

- all elite performers would raise the alarm immediately if there´s any sign of laxness or if they would even hear of foreign athletes training in kenya due to laxness in the control system

- we would have to admire that also all coaches invest time, energy and money to drag the wada along

- all coaches talk to rich sport companies with success to get doping controls sponsored

- coaches never stop to complain about a lack of controls.

instead of this we have to listen again to "lance armstrong-talk" about clean performances, a strong will and real manly training.

if it waren't possible for 2 clean guys to dominate

during the era when there was no test for epo and later when epo could still be used freely

which i know wadn't possible.........

well we know what that means.........

.........the doomsday scenario

they been foolin us

There isn't a reliable EPO test right now.

The only 'reliable' way of catching EPO cheats, and also those athletes that partake in the odd homologous blood transfusion is the bio-passport.

The bio-passport requires a number of blood tests over a period of time to be effective. Lucky for some nations without NADOs that they have to rely on the IAAF for all their testing, and we all know how motivated they are to bust cheaters in their own sport.

If you read the link, the sportsscientists agreed with you on many of those points, about how to interpret (and not interpret) the graphs. They also showed in the graph, the average of the top 20, which would smooth some of the individual outliers (like records set by Geb and Bekele). But they emphasized that "this is not proof of doping", "there can be many explanations", but it's tools like these that might help targeted testing.