Who is the best 1500m/Miler ever?

Red Arrow wrote:

Here is a great link to show just how full of bull***t Ventolin (aka Eldrick) is

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22583

Pages 1 & 5 are particularly interesting.

On P. 1 (as Eldrick, who was banned from the site later) Ventolin clearly states,

"coe ran 1'41 over 25y ago & the record has only moved on by 1/2s since then ( give him a more modern track & record may not have moved at all ! ) "

This implies that tracks have got faster since 1981 and that Coe would have run faster on a modern one. Things he flatly refutes now.

On P. 5, he states, "a coe in '81 with anywhere between 45.0 - 46.0 & 3'47.33 mile for 800"

Again, he now dismisses anyone who suggests Coe was faster than 45.7. But he himself is quoted as saying he could have been faster.

On P. 3 he discusses Ryun,

"I'd have to put Ryun up there as well, as apparently his 1'44 was also on cinders - looking at film of his Mile WR, he struck me as a man who under ideal circumstances was capable of 51s pace from gun-to-tape ( i believe he was ~ mid-46 guy at the time & his 1500 record indicates 3'28 - 3'29 if flat out from gun to tape ( both times assumed to be equivalent on a modern synthetic track - indicates ~ 1'42.4 - 1'42.7 ability ) )

Interesting! So in 2006, not only did Ventolin not realize Ryun's 1:44.3 was on synthetic, but he also gave him a potential of 1:42.4- 1:42.7.

Somehow in the intervening 6 years he has found another 2 secs to knock off that time!

Perhaps he'll have Ryun running 1:38.4 by 2016.

The man is a fruitcake who changes his mind and makes things up on a whim, usually to be purposely contrary and obtuse to anyone who he doesn't agree with.

said88 wrote:

socal cush wrote:

[quote]Bring Back the Mile wrote:

nurmi: hmmm, tough one. smaller competition pool i guess?

elliott: as mentioned, relatively short career.

snell: never set 1500 world record/barely broke elliott's mile record.

ryun: no gold.

keino: no world records.

bayi: no gold.

walker: hmmm, another tough one for me. no world records in the 1500. no commonwealth golds.

coe: yet another tough one for me. losing to ovett and cram at least a few times, maybe?

ovett: no gold in 1500.

morcelli: epo accusations aside, barcelona.

el g: epo accusations aside, sydney. and an 0-2 record against socal cush.

again, i'll still take elliott....

So, you still stick to Elliott... that's - what should I say - astonishing.

So, what if Elliott wouldn't have retired in '61 (practically after Rome)? If he would have trained hard to compete with the best in the world and:

-reached the Olympic finale in '64 - but no chance to stay with Snell

-reached the Olympic finale in '68 - but no chance to stay with Keino, Ryun, Tümmler, Norpoth

- tried to go to Munich in '72, but wasn't selected.

In Munich '72 he was 34 years old, so an absolutely realistic scenario. In all those years from '61 to '72 maybe he would have had some good results, some victories, but also many defeats, some good times, but not anymore world beating times. His records would have been beaten by big margins (Ryun).

Would you still call him for Nr. 1? No, you wouldn't, I'm sure. His career would look more like Walker. Or Ovett. Or something like this. A great career, but no comparison to El Guerrouj, who dominated almost for a decade (yes, his career also wasn' perfect, I know).

So doing nothing in the sport (stopping at age 23, practically at age 22) is better than training hard for many years and trying to be one of the best in the world, but didn't reach that goal anymore. (which is the normal way)

Come on, it can't be like this.

I'm also still waiting for this 2-0. I've tried to figure out what you are talking. It just would be fair now to speak what you are really talking. Bulkovskiy lost in '97 against El Guerrouj. So what are you talking?

said88 wrote:

socal cush wrote:

[quote]Bring Back the Mile wrote:

nurmi: hmmm, tough one. smaller competition pool i guess?

elliott: as mentioned, relatively short career.

snell: never set 1500 world record/barely broke elliott's mile record.

ryun: no gold.

keino: no world records.

bayi: no gold.

walker: hmmm, another tough one for me. no world records in the 1500. no commonwealth golds.

coe: yet another tough one for me. losing to ovett and cram at least a few times, maybe?

ovett: no gold in 1500.

morcelli: epo accusations aside, barcelona.

el g: epo accusations aside, sydney. and an 0-2 record against socal cush.

again, i'll still take elliott....

So, you still stick to Elliott... that's - what should I say - astonishing.

So, what if Elliott wouldn't have retired in '61 (practically after Rome)? If he would have trained hard to compete with the best in the world and:

-reached the Olympic finale in '64 - but no chance to stay with Snell

-reached the Olympic finale in '68 - but no chance to stay with Keino, Ryun, Tümmler, Norpoth

- tried to go to Munich in '72, but wasn't selected.

In Munich '72 he was 34 years old, so an absolutely realistic scenario. In all those years from '61 to '72 maybe he would have had some good results, some victories, but also many defeats, some good times, but not anymore world beating times. His records would have been beaten by big margins (Ryun).

Would you still call him for Nr. 1? No, you wouldn't, I'm sure. His career would look more like Walker. Or Ovett. Or something like this. A great career, but no comparison to El Guerrouj, who dominated almost for a decade (yes, his career also wasn' perfect, I know).

So doing nothing in the sport (stopping at age 23, practically at age 22) is better than training hard for many years and trying to be one of the best in the world, but didn't reach that goal anymore. (which is the normal way)

Come on, it can't be like this.

I'm also still waiting for this 2-0. I've tried to figure out what you are talking. It just would be fair now to speak what you are really talking. Bulkovskiy lost in '97 against El Guerrouj. So what are you talking?

Coevett wrote:

said88 wrote:

So, you still stick to Elliott... that's - what should I say - astonishing.

So, what if Elliott wouldn't have retired in '61 (practically after Rome)? If he would have trained hard to compete with the best in the world and:

-reached the Olympic finale in '64 - but no chance to stay with Snell

-reached the Olympic finale in '68 - but no chance to stay with Keino, Ryun, Tümmler, Norpoth

- tried to go to Munich in '72, but wasn't selected.

In Munich '72 he was 34 years old, so an absolutely realistic scenario. In all those years from '61 to '72 maybe he would have had some good results, some victories, but also many defeats, some good times, but not anymore world beating times. His records would have been beaten by big margins (Ryun).

Would you still call him for Nr. 1? No, you wouldn't, I'm sure. His career would look more like Walker. Or Ovett. Or something like this. A great career, but no comparison to El Guerrouj, who dominated almost for a decade (yes, his career also wasn' perfect, I know).

So doing nothing in the sport (stopping at age 23, practically at age 22) is better than training hard for many years and trying to be one of the best in the world, but didn't reach that goal anymore. (which is the normal way)

Come on, it can't be like this.

I'm also still waiting for this 2-0. I've tried to figure out what you are talking. It just would be fair now to speak what you are really talking. Bulkovskiy lost in '97 against El Guerrouj. So what are you talking?

Nonsense. Very few athletes carried on beyond their mid-twenties back then. It was the financial reality of competing in an amateur sport.

El G dominated in a drug infested era in which most talented non-Africans were giving up on the sport.

Herb Elliott's record is as dominant as El G's in its way if we are talking strictly about 1500m/Mile. To say that he would suddenly have started losing had he not retired at 22/23/ and would have 'no chance' of getting near Snell in 1964 is ridiculous.

ventolin^3 wrote:

Rose tinted spectacles wrote:Cram would likely have added to his inaugural World Champ gold in 83 with another in 85 had they been held biannually

no

it's 50/50 if he'd have won 1500 in '85 as aouita wouda likely run it

Coe won 2 Olympic golds

coe's 2 golds are devalued as they were both in boycott games

'80 - he didn't run against wessinhage/hudak who both had fasters pbs than him that year

a demotivated scott wouda likely been focused knowing he wouda been going to games

all these guys wouda been going into the 1500 fresh & with no rounds of 800 in their legs

with all that, i'd rate coe's chances of 1500 gold in '80 as no better than 50/50

'84 - less devalued as no real threat missing because of boycott, just that his 2 main rivals in race, cram/ovett were coming of injury/ill & his main rival, aouita who'd again run a faster time than coe's pb with 3'31.54 ran the 5k which was guaranteed gold compared to 1500

i strongly suspect aouita was as good in '84 as in '85 ( already a mature 24y & you peak for olympic year, not an off-year - he jogged a 13'05 in brutal heat - no doubt