D3 mideast Regionals...

hip-Hop! wrote:

A 5-time All-American has to "break through?" She had 1 "bad" race at Paul Short...6 days after a huge one Williams. When is Patel going to "break through" and get 5 plaques? She lost to three others from the region on Saturday (one was a teammate).

Some of you guys are basing way too much of this thread on Paul Short, which is now ancient history. First of all, it was on 10/2- so you can be sure some people rested for that meet, and some did not. Some of the people on the above list of "contenders" will be victims of bad coaching and will not run that fast again all season.

Yes, a 5 time AA has to break through. She has been going to NCAA's since she was a freshman and never broken top 30! In 2006 Paulsen was #2 in the region and 52nd at NCAA's. Patel was 58th in the region in 2006. 2007 yielded a #4 regional finish for Paulsen and 34th for Patel. Both went to NCAA's and Paulsen was 39th while Patel was 238th. 2008 and, again, Paulsen was 4th in the region while Patel was 7th. At NCAA's in 2008 Paulsen was 31st, again not cracking the top-30, while Patel moved up 197 places to 41st.

What's going to happen this year hip-Hop? It is Paulsen's race to lose, I agree... but she hasn't BROKE THROUGH to win a region she should have been dominating since 2007. Sh!t, she was second place as a FRESHMAN in 2006! Patel, on the other hand, has been steadily improving and slamming the gap on Paulsen. IT IS HER TIME TO HAVE A BREAK THROUGH SEASON.

It is sad to see you resort to the "bad coaching" card. A lot of things happen during a season that dictate the final outcome. Just because a kid runs fast earlier in the season than some is not an indicator of bad coaching alone. Maybe not all of these schools have the resources you have at JHU?

What "resources" does downtown Baltimore have that the rest of the region doesn't? As far as Paulsen is concerned, she was never going to beat two other bona fide stud All-Americans in Bradley and Fisher in 2007, so I am not sure you can say she should have dominated that year. Maybe last year. But I know shehad a stress fracture that set her back for part of that time...spring 08 I believe. That screwed up her 08 xc season. But she ran faster than ever last year on the track. I am not sure which dog you have in this fight, and it is not my intent to insult anyone personally. I am just saying that when a program has a history of doing it's best work at championships, you know they have a good coach. And when they are inconsistent, that's a refelction of coaching as well. What's so controversial about that? I wish i knew who you were trying to stick up for...then maybe your comments would make more sense.

I Guess I'm somewhere stuck in the middle between the two of you, hop and watcher. I do agree with you that poor coaching does exist and just didn't think that it should apply to the list of individuals that you applied it to before. As I said all of those individuals have done well at championship meets, so I don't agree that poor coaching will be the demise of those runners if, by chance, they have a poor rce at regionals.

However, just because Patel has been closing the gap does not mean that Paulsen is not performing. Good consistent finishes at NCAAs is not a bad thing. Perhaps Patel had that much more of an upside but that does not indicate that Paulsen has not made a break through. Success is not always linear!

this has to be the longest discussion ever about female runners on letsrun on a thread not explicitly about female runners

[quote]hip-Hop! wrote:

What "resources" does downtown Baltimore have that the rest of the region doesn't?

As far as Paulsen is concerned, she was never going to beat two other bona fide stud All-Americans in Bradley and Fisher in 2007, so I am not sure you can say she should have dominated that year. Maybe last year. But I know shehad a stress fracture that set her back for part of that time...spring 08 I believe. That screwed up her 08 xc season. But she ran faster than ever last year on the track.

I am not sure which dog you have in this fight, and it is not my intent to insult anyone personally. I am just saying that when a program has a history of doing it's best work at championships, you know they have a good coach. And when they are inconsistent, that's a refelction of coaching as well. What's so controversial about that?

I wish i knew who you were trying to stick up for...then maybe your comments would make more sense.

[quote]

I'm talking about the resources that put JHU Men's Lacrosse in position for a DIVISION 1 NCAA Championship every year. Clearly they have resources (trainers, doctors, facilities, money in general) that give them quite a distinct advantage for competition, rehab, and recruiting. I mean hell, Hopkins refrigerates their tape! I never heard of this until I saw it there.

Why couldn't she beat Fisher? She did as a freshman in 2006. Shouldn't 2007 have been even better for her? I mean, obviously the coaching is good enough and the facilities at JHU destroy E-town's. I do agree though, Bradley was on a different level for most of her career.

I don't mean to insult any of the JHU runners. They go out and train harder/smarter than most of the country does, that is why they're so good. I give them props for that. But Paulsen has been sitting in the same spot for 3 years in the ME region. Can we look away from her, to at least one of her teammates, to realize that individual talent in this region is VERY strong this year.

Who am I sticking up for? I guess the little guys and girls of DIII. JHU is a joke and I will tell you why. They are a DI perennial powerhouse in men's LAX yet they are allowed to compete in DIII for everything else. The end result is they dominate damn near everything. How can you not succeed when you have an athletics backing like that? DI for one sport should mean DI for ALL sports.

By the way - I don't have a "dog in this fight." Remember, I am just a "WATCHER." :-) Best of luck at conferences, regionals, and nationals. Bring back a title for the ME region... it's long over due!

just noticing wrote:

this has to be the longest discussion ever about female runners on letsrun on a thread not explicitly about female runners

I think the women's race is more interesting this year. The guys team race has very little drama. The top four ranked will probably all advance to nationals with little problem. Almost all of the top finishers at last year's regionals were seniors or they're on one of those 4 teams. We can debate whether Reichert, Wasnetsky, Newhook, Thistle and Tobochnik have a chance to advance or whether the winner will be Leak, Marker, or someone else, but the women's race is way more up in the air. JHU has two girls that could possibly win. There are several great girls without a strong team behind them that could be surprise winners. The team race is completely up in the air after the first three teams. There's just a lot more to debate on their side.

And more people care about what happens up front than about whether the guy that finishes 28th will be advancing. The female individual qualifiers will probably all be in the top 12 at regionals, and they did better at nationals than the men last year (2 were in the top 40).

Why couldn't she beat Fisher?

just noticing wrote:

this has to be the longest discussion ever about female runners on letsrun on a thread not explicitly about female runners

Cool!

Let's talk about the guys for minute. E'town broke into the poll this week at 28. They beat some ranked teams from the GL region and were reasonably close to CMU (CMU is still better). Does this mean the men get 5 teams this year? I say it's a lock, and the teams will finish as they are ranked right now:

1. Allegheny

2. Haverford

3. Dickinson

4. Carnegie Mellon

5. Elizabethtown

Sorry to say that Hopkins' men did not look so good last week and if they don't improve, they are done. I don't think anyone else has the horses to challenge.

you would be sorely mistaken to assume hopkins xc/track have the same resources as hopkins lacrosse.

you fail to understand why hopkins is d1 in lacrosse and d3 in everything else. when the ncaa added divisions in 1973, hopkins, like a hanful of schools, was allowed to have one team remain in d1 for historical purposes. the team had won 35 national championships by 1973, had played in the olympics, etc. conversely, the men's school record in the mile was 4:17. clearly there was and still is a huge disparity in the talent and strength of the two programs. the lax team has always been strongly backed and supported by the university like a d1 team, while the other programs have not. to be competitive things had to be split. simply came down to competitiveness.

the only real resources the xc/track teams and the lax teams share are the weight room facilities and the showers. the training staff treats lax completely different. the budgets are completely separate. etc. etc.

basically my point is lacrosse is treated like a good d1 team and everyone else is treated as a mediocre to good d3 team when it comes to resources. you would be foolish to think otherwise.

I hope that the region gets 5 bids this year. I think it was deserved last year but for the selection committee felt otherwise. If Etown runs like they did at Oberlin I think they get that spot assuming they are the 5th team in the region (I wouldn't count Hopkins out just yet). However based on what I perceive is a slight underestimation of the region's talent by the selection committee I would like to see whichever team ends up in that 5th spot run closer to CMU at regionals than Etown did at Oberlin.

I don't remember anyone saying JHU should be division I when they were consistantly at the bottom of the conference and region. their lax team has nothing to do with their track and XC team. We dominated them for four years. They've gotten better. what they do have is a great academic school that everyone knows, so that's what helps. but something must be going right down there. their men were not running 26 min 8k average times until recently. And Paulsen was an average high school runner who was the only sub 17 minute girl in the nation last year in track..um break through? looking forward to watching the blue jays of etown men battle it out with them once again.

The difference is that JoHo has a full time coach now. So with all their "resources" and it is just recently that they hired a full timer!

Van Allen was very young and very part time when he started. That program has been improving slowly, especially since he became full time a few years ago.

macrunr99 wrote:

And Paulsen was an average high school runner who was the only sub 17 minute girl in the nation last year in track..

how "average" was this kid in h.s.? she was at nationals right out of the box as a freshman. "average" h.s. runners usually take a couple years to develop into that kind of athlete.

Belinda wrote:

macrunr99 wrote:

And Paulsen was an average high school runner who was the only sub 17 minute girl in the nation last year in track..

how "average" was this kid in h.s.? she was at nationals right out of the box as a freshman. "average" h.s. runners usually take a couple years to develop into that kind of athlete.

not sure how accurate this is, but from mdrunners.com

Personal Bests

1600 Meter Run - 5:14.00

800 Meter Run - 2:25.23

5000 Meter Run - 19:21.18

Three Mile Run - 18:19.00

3200 Meter Run - 11:45.80

even if she did post faster times, she has improved every year at nationals for XC and had the fastest time in the nation for 5k last year, 25 seconds faster than her freshman year.

The men's race isn't going to be exciting? There are three very good teams with a shot at winning the regionals race. What has historically been a weak region is now loaded with guys who could be running sub-25 at lehigh's course with good conditions. There were 9 guys who ran 25:08 or faster there at paul short, and there could be a lot more guys coming on strong at the end of the season who will run fast as well. Allegheny is the favorite, but after the Oberlin race is definitely vulnerable, and Dickinson and Haverford have a lot of firepower. Any of these three teams could end up on the podium if they have great races at nationals, and should definitely be top 10. There may not be individuals with much of a shot at the individual title other than Leak and Marker, but after that, it seems there are about 10+ guys, mostly from Allegheny, Dickinson and Haverford (maybe CMU too) who could fill up the rest of the top 5-10 in any order.

Agreed. I am amazed at how competitive the region has become. There are 5,6,7 place teams that if they were in a different region could possibly go to the "big show"

Any thoughts after conference weekend?