lagat 3:32.56 in Morocco

jingle bowels wrote:ah ventolin you have come up with quite a specific race scenario haven't you? Why are you setting him up to run a 1.42 though? 1.44 races happen in relative "nobody" meets all the time, ask KD, and 51 is fast enough, you don't need kip, borza et al to run 1.44

The below stats were kindly contributed by someone else on another thread.

You see I think you can make the assumption for some athletes, but not Lagat. His career is too long and he has raced 800's too many times to automatically believe he could run 2 seconds faster

1.44 is a time 3.30 runners do, even out of shape or rounding into shape a 3.26 man should be able to run 1.44. Lagat couldn't do it EVER despite all the below attempts

ventolin wrote:

no

only 2 men in recent times have run/approached their pb by running close to/even splits - borza in his 1'42.4 & cram in his 1'43.2 - even though this may theoretically be best way to run your fastest 800

if you have learnt anything about bernie, it's that he runs his best off sustained brutual pace - to get the best out of his 800, he woud require hard fast pace of 50s at bell - of 51s, he is more likely to run "tactically" & he's not going to outkick seasoned 1'44 ( or even 1'43 ) guys with high-46/low-47 speed

no

i asked how many elite 800 races he ran in '01 & '04 & specifically in '01 when he ran 3'26

the answer : in '01 he ran a 1'48.8i

where was his elite circuit outdoor against bucher ( a machine at the time who invariably went out in 50-flat & coud hang on for 1'42.5 ) to assess his "true" 800 ability at his 1500 peak ?

as pointed out above, bernie runs his best in fast races where there was no "thinking" required - just follow a blazing pace - find 1 race of his where the winner ran 1'42/1'43 & you've got an argument that he coudn't follow fast sustained pace in an 800

ventolin wrote:

51s is fast only for a guy with a nominal 1'46pb - it's not fast for someone who is almost certainly considerably faster

bernie is no cram - there is a 3+s difference over them over 1500

50s may have proved uncomfortably fast for cram but for bernie, a guy with significantly better endurance & therefore lactate tolerance, it woud not

the discomfort cram woud feel at 51s may be only the same as discomfort bernie may have felt at 50s

there is no disbelief on bernie's part about not being able to outkick 1'44 guys in slow races - it's an obvious statement - they are 800 specialists with usually high-46/low-47 speed & he had likely high-47/low-48 speed - he's not outkicking them in slow races - i've told you this 3 times - are you stupid ?

as for not going flat out in those 800s, when he finds out they are slow instead of 50s/1'42/1'43 pace, why on earth woud he want to run out of his skin in these low-grade races with little pay ?

you run out of your skin 2nd lap of a slow 1st 400 in zurich or berlin, not des moines

middle distance wrote:What a crock of shit!

Cram was capable of at least 3:28 (had a much faster pb than Lagat over a Mile) in '85, and on todays tracks thats got to be worth a second faster. So there's minimal difference between them at that distance

How you can even say that Lagat would have been more comfortable off 50 secs than Cram, when the latter was more than 3 secs faster, is laughable, and one of the most far fetched things you've yet to come out with

Do you really believe that if Lagat was in an 800m race and he didn't go through 400m in 50 secs, he consciously thought "oh well, I'm far too comfortable off this slow 51 sec pace, and there's no way I can outkick these mere mortals of 1:44 capability, (even though I know I'm capable of 1:43), so I can't be bothered to try on the second lap"? Because in essence, that is what you are saying

It's worth pointing out that Cram, whose 400 capability was also worth around high 47/low 48 was capable of outkicking "seasoned 1:44" guys in races, and did so on many occasions

Cram was also more than 3 secs faster over 1000m. So much for his inferior speed endurance

You're right on one thing though. Bernie certainly isn't a 3 times world record holder.

ventolin wrote:

51s is fast only for a guy with a nominal 1'46pb - it's not fast for someone who is almost certainly considerably faster

bernie is no cram - there is a 3+s difference over them over 1500

50s may have proved uncomfortably fast for cram but for bernie, a guy with significantly better endurance & therefore lactate tolerance, it woud not

the discomfort cram woud feel at 51s may be only the same as discomfort bernie may have felt at 50s

there is no disbelief on bernie's part about not being able to outkick 1'44 guys in slow races - it's an obvious statement - they are 800 specialists with usually high-46/low-47 speed & he had likely high-47/low-48 speed - he's not outkicking them in slow races - i've told you this 3 times - are you stupid ?

as for not going flat out in those 800s, when he finds out they are slow instead of 50s/1'42/1'43 pace, why on earth woud he want to run out of his skin in these low-grade races with little pay ?

you run out of your skin 2nd lap of a slow 1st 400 in zurich or berlin, not des moines

ventolin wrote:

middle distance wrote:What a crock of shit!

Cram was capable of at least 3:28 (had a much faster pb than Lagat over a Mile) in '85, and on todays tracks thats got to be worth a second faster. So there's minimal difference between them at that distance

the introduction of cram's 3'46.3pb to bernie's 3'47 as a semblance of comparity over 1500/mile shows you are a complete idiot

cram ran 3'46 with 53 - low 3'29 off 1.08 ( with proportioned down 53 )

bernie ran low 3'26 with 53 ( & slightly balked by hicham when kicking off the curve )

there's 3s diffence between them & even if you offer cram 1s for tracks, that's 2s difference

"minimal" assertion is moronic

You're such a hypocrite!

You, or rather your alter ego (Eldrik) has posted numerous times on T&FN how Cram's 3:46.3 with a 53.0 sec last 400m was worth at least 3:45.5.

Using your own formula, 1:42.5 (which you give him in his 1:42.88 run) plus a 3:45.5 Mile gives 3:28.37. With improvements in tracks and shoes from '85 to '01, thats got to be worth around 3:27.5.

Cram's last 400m in 53.0 was in a race where the average 400 was 56.28 ~ over 3 secs increase in average pace. Lagat's 53.5 last lap (with EL G pacing him from the front) was in a race where the average 400m time was 55.0. Not such an increase in pace as Cram's 3.28secs.

Lagat's range in 400m splits was 2.8 (56.3 2nd 400m compared to 53.5 last)

Cram's range was 5.4 (58.6 3rd quarter compared to 53.2 last quarter)

So the last lap time of both cannot be compared in isolation to their finish times.

How you can even say that Lagat would have been more comfortable off 50 secs than Cram, when the latter was more than 3 secs faster, is laughable, and one of the most far fetched things you've yet to come out with

idiot

see above for "pain threshold"

bernie 2nd on 1500 list

cram 20th on 800 list

who handles "pain" better

Are you kidding? Cram was competing 20 years before Lagat!

Cram's vastly superior 800 and 1000 times show he was much better at handling the endurance immediately after 400m in an 800m race, which is the context of what we were discussing.

Do you really believe that if Lagat was in an 800m race and he didn't go through 400m in 50 secs, he consciously thought "oh well, I'm far too comfortable off this slow 51 sec pace, and there's no way I can outkick these mere mortals of 1:44 capability, (even though I know I'm capable of 1:43), so I can't be bothered to try on the second lap"? Because in essence, that is what you are saying

you have no clue about bernie

he races, not TTs - same as an ovett who was worth mid-3'29 back in '78 off mid-1'43/8'10 - 8'12 off quicker rono, but never got better than 3'30.77 in '83 - bernie never ran better than 3'47 in a wabbited race for him - derisory

Crap! How many times as he raced on the circuit asking for this time at 400 and that time at 800m? Loads.

It's worth pointing out that Cram, whose 400 capability was also worth around high 47/low 48 was capable of outkicking "seasoned 1:44" guys in races, and did so on many occasions

no

idiot

cram was worth helluva lot faster over 400 & that's why he outkicked 1'44 guys in slow races

PROOF? Cram's fastest recorded 400m was a 47.6 relay leg in the Far East in late '84. That's worth 48.1 for 400m flat. He himself is on record as saying he could never run a 47 400m unlike Coe & Ovett. You obviously know more about the man's training and racing programme than he does himself!

Just because your formula shows that he should have run such a time at 400m doesn't make it reality. It proves that your formula isn't full proof.

try 3'28 with either 2'12.0 ( gateshead without pissy rain/wind cold ) or 1'42.5 - 1'42.75 ( cruz race off better pacing )

the 3'28/2'12 works best

Cram was also more than 3 secs faster over 1000m. So much for his inferior speed endurance

as i said bernie races, not TTs

for once use a qualitative appraisal

if noah had never bothered with 1k in '99 to categorise him as 1'42+, what on earth are the "last lap" speed differences between these guys in their main event of 1500/mile you can offer ?

if noah had never run that short concentrated block of 800/1k, what woud be your estimate of his 800/1k ability off 3'43/4'50/7'35 ( different years ) ???

You're right on one thing though. Bernie certainly isn't a 3 times world record holder.

eh ?

middle distance wrote:You're such a hypocrite!

You, or rather your alter ego (Eldrik) has posted numerous times on T&FN how Cram's 3:46.3 with a 53.0 sec last 400m was worth at least 3:45.5.

Using your own formula, 1:42.5 (which you give him in his 1:42.88 run) plus a 3:45.5 Mile gives 3:28.37. With improvements in tracks and shoes from '85 to '01, thats got to be worth around 3:27.5.

Cram's last 400m in 53.0 was in a race where the average 400 was 56.28 ~ over 3 secs increase in average pace. Lagat's 53.5 last lap (with EL G pacing him from the front) was in a race where the average 400m time was 55.0. Not such an increase in pace as Cram's 3.28secs.

Lagat's range in 400m splits was 2.8 (56.3 2nd 400m compared to 53.5 last)

Cram's range was 5.4 (58.6 3rd quarter compared to 53.2 last quarter)

So the last lap time of both cannot be compared in isolation to their finish times

Are you kidding? Cram was competing 20 years before Lagat!

Cram's vastly superior 800 and 1000 times show he was much better at handling the endurance immediately after 400m in an 800m race, which is the context of what we were discussing

Crap! How many times as he raced on the circuit asking for this time at 400 and that time at 800m? Loads

PROOF? Cram's fastest recorded 400m was a 47.6 relay leg in the Far East in late '84. That's worth 48.1 for 400m flat. He himself is on record as saying he could never run a 47 400m unlike Coe & Ovett. You obviously know more about the man's training and racing programme than he does himself!

Just because your formula shows that he should have run such a time at 400m doesn't make it reality. It proves that your formula isn't full proof

You said Lagat wasn't a Cram. I agree. Lagat hasn't broken any world records, while Cram broke 3 at different distances; Cram's pbs at 800m, 1000m, 1 Mile and 2000m are all superior to Lagat's, and he was running those 25 years ago.

jingle bowels wrote:again why does Lagat have to run his 800m PB in Zurich, splitting 49 with Bucher? Why are you setting him up a 1.42 race?

Baala 1.45.52 Efrut 2004 1st

Willis 1.45.54 Heusden 2004 1st (B Race)

Heshko 1.45.92 Athina 2004 2nd

Silva 1.45.90 Iraklio 2004 9th

These guys didn't need it, they are all worse than Lagat, all run the 800 about as often, all running in similar level 800's to those which Lagat ran.. yet all found a way to break 1.46. If Lagat could have, he would have

then i asked you to convert what a composite 800 of 1'47 of a 1st/last lap with an intermediate 700m run at 3'30 pace converts to for an 800 ?

give me a number

jingle bowels wrote:There isn't a conversion for everything, it depends completely on the athlete concerned, in this instance it proves Lagat is more of a unique case.

ventolin wrote:

Cram's last 400m in 53.0 was in a race where the average 400 was 56.28 ~ over 3 secs increase in average pace. Lagat's 53.5 last lap (with EL G pacing him from the front) was in a race where the average 400m time was 55.0. Not such an increase in pace as Cram's 3.28secs.

Lagat's range in 400m splits was 2.8 (56.3 2nd 400m compared to 53.5 last)

eh ?

do you have nothing but a kindergarden grasp of arithmetic ( certainly won't dignify that rubbish by assigning it "maths" ) ?!

re-do any cram splits/laps/average/etc above by a general 1 mile/1500 conversion factor for all of

1.08 / (1.609344/1.5 ) =

1.0066

As usual, you jump to the wrong conclusion and illustrate how patronising you really are.

There's no need for me to do the conversions you suggest. I simply took off the 1.2 secs standard conversion that's been used for decades to give Cram's 1600m time of 3:45.1 and divided it by 4 to give his average time per 400m (not 440yds) which works out at 56.28. It's irrelevant that I was comparing a mile to a 1500m, because I was illustrating the point (quite straightforwardly) that Cram's last 400m (53.2 for last 440yd ~ c. 52.9/53.0) was proportionately faster compared to the average pace of the race, than Lagat's last 400m in 53.5 (where his average 400m over 3.75 laps, opposed to Cram's 4, was 55.02)

Thus, Cram's run was far less efficient than was Lagat's. I.e it wasn't such even paced. I don't know how to make that point any clearer!

Cram's range was 5.4 (58.6 3rd quarter compared to 53.2 last quarter)

see above

So the last lap time of both cannot be compared in isolation to their finish times

drivel

you can convert their last 400s with above

you seem to be clueless about fast times - it's bell time what's looked out for a shot at a wr

What!?

It's not just about the last 400m split in a 1500 or Mile race. It's about the distribution of effort. It would have been just as impressive had Lagat run that 3:26.34 with the first lap in 53.5 and run his slowest 400m ( 56.3) on the last lap.

Cram and few others would have expected a WR when he went through the bell in 2:53.1.

Are you kidding? Cram was competing 20 years before Lagat!

Cram's vastly superior 800 and 1000 times show he was much better at handling the endurance immediately after 400m in an 800m race, which is the context of what we were discussing

nominally

as i've asked you before, where was bernie's zurich 800 where wabbit went thru in 49.5 with rodahl/bucher/kip/bungster a step behind & bernie a step further ?

Completely hypothetical, not backed up by any evidence of what Lagat's done over 800m. If he's only run 1:46 off 51, I don't think the idea he'd run sub 1:44 off a 49.5 is even remotely convincing.

then i asked you to convert what a composite 800 of 1'47 of a 1st/last lap with an intermediate 700m run at 3'30 pace converts to for an 800 ?

give me a number

Crap! How many times as he raced on the circuit asking for this time at 400 and that time at 800m? Loads

drivel

virtually ever 1500/mile bernie ran upto '05 was a hicham race & he did bloody well - a 3'26.3 behind & a 3'27.40 beating him

find a race anywhere on circuit before '05 without hicham where bernie got dragged thru in 2'33

That makes no sense. Of course he knew when he got into races with EL G that there would be very fast and specific pace laid on for EL G, and thus for everyone else who was able to follow it. I remember vividly that Lagat asked for 1:52 at 800m and 2:48 at 1200m last year in Rieti, in an attempt to break 3:30. The pace was fast, though admittedly not quite what was asked for, but he faded quite badly on the last lap to record 3:32.**

Winning may well be his main priority, but he has used pace makers to run fast times, and with EL G he probably had the best and most reliable pace maker any athlete ever had!

PROOF? Cram's fastest recorded 400m was a 47.6 relay leg in the Far East in late '84. That's worth 48.1 for 400m flat. He himself is on record as saying he could never run a 47 400m unlike Coe & Ovett. You obviously know more about the man's training and racing programme than he does himself!

Just because your formula shows that he should have run such a time at 400m doesn't make it reality. It proves that your formula isn't full proof

you are quoting an '84 time where he was a 1'43.61 guy from '82 & a 3'31.66 guy in '83 & was injured in '84

he ran 1'42.88 & 3'46.32

only an idiot woud believe that a 47.6 relay leg in injured-'84 when vastly inferior to '85 represents anywhere close to his 400 ability.

No! For a start Cram run 1:43.61 in 1983, NOT '82 as you quoted. His 47.6 relay leg (which would only have been worth around 48.1 for a flat race) was in early October '84, long after his injury problem in June/July. Why go on a Far Eastern tour if he was still injured. I agree he would have been faster in the height of the 85 Summer, but he was never capable of breaking 47 secs for 400m. With his better endurance than most 800m runners, he would only need 47.4 (+4.0) x 2 to reach his 1:42.88 pb.

as for cram's "statements" - he's never said anything +ve about himself in 20y+ of commentary as he never had the big gold

?? I'm not talking about what he has said in his capacity as commentator, but rather through what he said in his own biography, other reference books and AW interviews from the time. What in-depth analysis did you read on him at the time?

You said Lagat wasn't a Cram. I agree. Lagat hasn't broken any world records, while Cram broke 3 at different distances; Cram's pbs at 800m, 1000m, 1 Mile and 2000m are all superior to Lagat's, and he was running those 25 years ago.

for the umpteenth time - how many 50s+ 800s for bernie in zurich ?

how many 1'44+ paced 1ks did he get ?

i won't bother mentioning bernie's 3'47 when he's run 3'26.3

a 4'51 for cram - wr at time, but embarassing to mention once this event was taken with a semblance of interest

4:51 certainly wasn't an embarrassing time in the mid '80's and as you said, it was rarely run. It still puts him no. 10 on the all-time list, so it's an exceptional time even for today. Cram was trying to break a target, which he did. There wasn't the same obsession with times that exists today, and he certainly didn't have the athletes at his disposal to give him the sort of pace people like EL G benefitted from 15 years later.

you are completely clueless