Vinokourov caught Doping!!!

The only guy that ever just admitted guilt was Felipe Meirhaghe (sp?). He was the current world mountain bike champ and addmited his guilt and retired.

However, he came back after his two year suspension (f***er). Nice thing is that he is always 5+ minutes off the pace in a 2 hour race now that he is back.

Cathal Lombard admitted it after he was caught.

So did David Millar.

So, what are the odds that if some of the very top bikers in a race are on drugs, that the overall winner is clean?

Explain how Lance would be clean please?

Lance would be "clean" by not taking drugs. That's how he WOULD be "clean".

Precisely, and technically he was "clean" because he didnt take drugs..he blood doped..since he shared the same doctor as Vinocurov and thats what the doc told Vino to do.

So yes, Lance is very "clean". And the rest of us are very "naivé".

Runningtart2004 wrote:

Question to all:

Let's say you're a decent student consistenly scoring less than others you strongly suspect are cheating. Let's then say a representative from your college comes up to you and says "If you see the test in advance, which we can arrange, you'll get top marks". "You won't get caught, everyone is on it (he then shows you stone cold proof), we have personnel who can keep it under wraps to make sure you don't get caught"

What would you do? Would you take it? Go from scoring mediocre marks to the top 1%...go from just an OK student to a genius.

If you are shown proof that most of your colleagues are cheating what would you do?

In the intellectual world, there are true geniuses, like Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking. Does anyone accuse them of "doping" to specifically increase their mental performance?

In the arts, there are geniuses, like Beethoven or Van Gogh. Many great artists "dope" to heighten their senses and bring out their genius, but that is usually accepted as part of an artist's lifestyle. It does not diminish the fact that an artistic genius is simply brilliant, whether or not their works were drug induced or not.

While I can't deny that there are dopers in athletics, I also firmly believe that there are "genius" athletes who are given special gifts at birth that enable them to do things in sports that the rest of us average and above-average people simply find impossible.

Yes, there are select people that can and do ride 20+ stages of a bicycle race at such a high level that we can only watch in awe. There are also a lot of cyclists who can't and then rely on extra, illegal means to do so. But to just say that all elite cyclists, or record-breaking runners, or home run-smashing baseball players are doping is simply wrong. And despite all their current flaws, I still find cycling and track and field to be two of the most beautiful sports in the world.

Tons of posts about how tired you all are of cycling and the Tour. That's it, you've had it, you'll never watch it again and blah blah blah.

Here's an observation. There have been a couple of threads about the Tour here since before it started, but for the last two weeks while the race has been going on, those threads have been very quiet.

Then the story about Rasmussen's warnings broke and the chatter went up. It was pretty lively for a few days, also because the Pyrenees stages have been great.

But nothing compared to today. Now everybody wants to watch the trainwreck. Well, you rubberneckers can kiss my ass. You're obviously not that into the sport in the first place, so frankly nobody cares if you're fed up with it. No big loss.

Or...maybe people start talking more about a 3 week race towards the end as it gets more exciting?

hypnotoad wrote:

Tons of posts about how tired you all are of cycling and the Tour. That's it, you've had it, you'll never watch it again and blah blah blah.

Here's an observation. There have been a couple of threads about the Tour here since before it started, but for the last two weeks while the race has been going on, those threads have been very quiet.

Then the story about Rasmussen's warnings broke and the chatter went up. It was pretty lively for a few days, also because the Pyrenees stages have been great.

But nothing compared to today. Now everybody wants to watch the trainwreck. Well, you rubberneckers can kiss my ass. You're obviously not that into the sport in the first place, so frankly nobody cares if you're fed up with it. No big loss.

It is a little funny to me because after the time trial I said well I guess astana (sp) got their blood bags today. Anyways I'm still watching tomorrow cause so far it has been a great race.

Johnny Rotten wrote:

Ever wonder why Phil, Paul, Roll, and Andreu NEVER talk about doping? They are a part of that culture, and I think it's just accepted. I love to listen to them and love to watch the sport, but somebody's going to have to decide whether the culture of the sport is up for honesty and the ethics that purport to rule outside the peloton as the sport gets more popular, or whether it needs to remain an insular culture with its own code. It appears to me as if pro wrestling is in a similar boat.

Are you kidding me? I've lost track of the number of times those guys have come down on doping. Phil Liggett has said that cyclists caught doping should be banned for life. It's one thing to accuse just about every successful cyclist there is of doping, regardless of evidence, but at least know something about the people who's names you're impugning.

Kloden was tested after the time trial and was negative. Suggests riders are making the doping decisions themselves now rather then the teams.

The large majority of cyclists (top mountain riders anyway) are and have been on drugs (EPO), blood doping, etc. Nobody can deny this. The number of riders linked to operation Puerto, T-Mobile, etc. Jorg Jagsche implicated at least twenty riders (stating that T-Mobile, Once, CSC were systematic doping) himself. Since Vino rode for Ullrich's T-Mobile squad the positive test is no great surprise. It is still dissapointing though.

Someone suggested that cycling should allow drugs in the sport. I tend to agree, since virtually everyone is involved in cheating it is virtually impossible for road cycling to rid itself of this disease.

I do not agree with those who link cycling's woes to endurance running. The positive tests in distance running are minuscule compared to cycling and there are obvious reasons for the improvements in athletics times (influx of Africans). It is not just EPO. Cycling has generally been dominated by europeans and this remains the case so the great improvements in average tour stage speeds over the last 15 years or so are totally dodgy. The same thing has happened in running but of course Africans didn't start getting into distance running until the 60's and other factors (such as Olympic boycotts, civil wars) prevented them from showing their full talents until the '90's. If EPO was prevalant in distance running then how come Americans, Europeans, etc have hardly improved since 1990? The 'white man' has been trying to improve since about 1900. The 'black man' since 1960. Since the '90's the 'white man' had little room left for improvement. I don't expect to see the Kenyans making huge improvements from 2020 onwards.

The east africans (specifically the Ethiopians and Kenyans) are the best endurance athletes in the world. If they had the money and the desire, I'm sure they could also dominate sports like the tour de france.

60secsurge wrote:

I do not agree with those who link cycling's woes to endurance running. The positive tests in distance running are minuscule compared to cycling and there are obvious reasons for the improvements in athletics times (influx of Africans).

Two things here. Firstly, cyclists compete a lot more than runners and a successful cyclist will be tested a LOT more than a successful runner. How many races would the top guys run a year. 15 at most?

Top cyclists race more than that in a grand tour alone not to mention build up races, single day races, "health" checks, surprise controls at training camps and WADA/national federation out of comp tests.

If you throw more mud, more will stick. The facts are that cyclists are targetted and tested far more than runners and therefore it is harder to avoid detection and mistakes are more easily made.

Anyone who thinks that doping isn't prevalent in athletics needs to talk to someone who's competed at the highest level and get their eyes opened. Its a dirty world we live in and just because we love running doesn't mean that its not filled with cheating mercenary bastards just like cycling is.

You do make some good points.

But I think that if it was as prevalant as you say, then there would be a significant number of Kenyans for example testing positive for EPO. There are not, yet there are probably around fifty Kenyan males running sub 2:10 marathons each year, in big city marathons. These races have decent testing procedures. Give me a list of decent Kenyan males to have tested positive for EPO. I bet it's a short list and there have been hundreds of Kenyans run quality times on the track and the road in the last fifteen years. If it was rife then there would be a large number of positives even taking into account the fact that top distance runners are tested less often then their road cycling counterparts.

The white man was running low 27's for 10km in the 80's. Today there is no difference. I listed the reasons for this in my earlier comments. It makes no sense that only the Africans (who have the least wealth) would be taking EPO. If an american suddenly comes out and runs 26:20 then I will look at it further. Some people simply can't handle that the east africans are so superior (in general) to the rest of the world in distance running.

I am a runner myself, not a cyclist. But I do prefer to watch the tour de france more than any running event. So I don't think that I'm biased. Sure, some distance runners are/have doped. I just don't think that people should be too suspicious about the success of the majority of Kenyans and Ethiopians. I do believe that Haile Gebrselassie is clean. I suppose you don't?

I never mentioned africans specifically...but with the spanish and portuguese the facts speak for themselves.

But, the advantage of EPO etc. is just as useful in the months of preparation for a marathon - its not that hard to avoid testing +ve at the race itself. Is it economically possible to do out of comp tests on 50 or 100 Kenyans about to break 2:10 or 2:25??

We live in a mucky world and the stakes for the best are high - anyone who think cycling and running are any different in this regard need a reality check.

[quote]To dope or not to dope wrote:

I remember when I started triathlon after my running eligibility ran out there were many accounts that the Big 5 (Tinley, Allen, Scott, Molina, Pigg) were all doped up. I asked my training partners if they would dope if it made them better and we all replied, without hesitation, that we would. The only thing preventing us was the cost involved with getting into a doctor supervised program (some didn't care about doctors - they just couldn't afford it) and our own ignorance of how to make steroids work in an endurance event.

There is no doubt in my mind that this is not a recent failing by cyclist. Many runners, throwers, triathletes in the 70's, 80's and 90's were blood doping and using steroids.

I just wish more people would start coming forward like Bejarne Riis and Team Telekom.

I raced professionaly in the mid to late 80's and your comments reinforce my belief that many I competed against were dirty. I did and still do believe in the purity of sport. A**holes like you are far too common.

So, of those "50 Kenyans" who run sub 2:10 how many do you think are tested? How many races can afford testing? Answer: not many? None? It's my understanding that unless a WR is broke, and therefore the IAAF steps in to test so it can ratify the record, marathon winners aren't tested? I could be wrong.

Alan

quit crying. i didn't watch today. good thing now that i hear that Ras is out...OH, and the Cofidis Team is out too... good times....Vino and Astana is old news. Lets just sit back and warm our collective feet on the fire that is the tour.

Dont be so naive when it comes to athletics and especially cycling. By your logic, Lance is so good that even when EVERY one of his rivals is busted for doping he is still way ahead. No way.