Official LRC President Joseph R Biden Thread

jumbo shrimp wrote:

Fat hurts wrote:

Mine is a crossover that probably has a lot more interior space than your dangerous filthy gas car. If clown cars were still a thing, you would indeed want an EV because you can fit more clowns. Gas cars are cramped inside because you need so much room for that behemoth of an engine.

Your car is slow and clunky. Mine has instant torque and it hugs the corners without skidding or tipping.

But sure, go on driving your outdated, expensive, and dangerous gasser. Maybe you will get lucky and not kill your family.

It’s a tiny tiny car. Crossover because of the car’s seat height. Face it. You bought too early and have been inconvenienced out of your mind. Having to stop every 150 or so miles to sit somewhere for 45 mins to 3 hours or more to charge has to be extremely frustrating. That is if you can find a free charger or one that is not broken. I can tell by the tone of your posts that you know I’m right. DO NOT buy an EV for a few more years. They aren’t ready yet. They will be but right now they are inconvenient and frustrating. If you have unlimited time and don’t mind sitting around waiting for slow charging or driving around trying to find a charger go for it. Otherwise wait for the early adopters to experience this burden.

Fat hurts wrote:

agip wrote:

Story in the WSJ today about the problems with EVs.

Behind a paywall, but here's the opener and some excerpts. Note that circa half of americans don't have a garage to charge their car in. Major reason why tens of millions of gasoline cars (or hybrids) will be needed for a long time).

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Bradley Wilkinson is the owner of a 2017 Chevrolet Bolt, and the kind of electric-vehicle diehard who knows how to squeeze every last mile of range out of his vehicle.

Even so, during his most recent road trip, from Tampa, Fla., back home to Fort Carson, Colo., he spent about 58 hours on the road. In a gasoline-powered vehicle, on average, the 1,900-mile journey would take about 30. His relatively sluggish pace was due to his need to regularly power up the Bolt’s battery at a “fast” charger—so called because they’re many times faster than typical home chargers.

Less experienced EV owners report far bigger inconveniences than Mr. Wilkinson’s. Those include: too few charging stations, too much demand at the stations that are available, broken chargers, confusing payment systems, exorbitant electricity rates, and uncertainty over how long their cars need to charge.

Bradley Wilkinson recently spent about 58 hours on a road trip in his Chevy Bolt that would have taken about 30 hours in a gas-powered vehicle.

While EVs can be powered up at home, industry analysts and academics believe that a fast-charging infrastructure is essential to getting beyond their current limited adoption. This next wave of slightly-less-early adopters is critical to a global automotive industry betting heavily on battery power.

Yet so far, only one carmaker has offered a reassuring pitch about conveniently and reliably recharging on the go: Tesla. And Tesla’s fast-charging technology doesn’t work on non-Tesla cars.

Building the requisite charging infrastructure for the rest of the EV universe will be expensive. The Biden administration has proposed building a network of 500,000 chargers in the next five years, which would cost billions. The fact that many believe such a government investment is required shows just how little faith many industry insiders have in the ability of private enterprise to solve this problem. One issue: Building out the nation’s charging infrastructure might not be profitable.

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Traditional car makers, with their sights set on a battery-only future, are aware of the charging problem. One effort to match Tesla’s superchargers has resulted in Electrify America, a nationwide network of fast-charging stations. Its creator, Volkswagen, agreed to invest $2 billion as part of the settlement with the U.S. government and California over its Dieselgate emissions-testing scandal. Other nationwide networks such as ChargePoint and EVGo, which primarily offer the slower sort of chargers, are now adding fast-charge technology. (The kind of charging that happens at home tops out at a maximum of 7.2 kw. Fast charging is 50kw and up.)

The result, for EV drivers who wish to take their vehicles on road trips—as well as the many city-dwelling EV owners who are unable to charge at home—is a patchwork of stations that many say is improving but still needs work.

In a survey of 3,500 EV drivers conducted in September and October 2020 by EV advocacy group Plug In America, more than half reported having problems with public charging. These problems were worse for respondents who drove non-Tesla vehicles; almost 60% of those reported issues. The most common complaint was a non-functional charger.

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EVs currently make up around 2% of vehicles sold each year in the U.S., and the Department of Energy says more than 80% of EV charging happens at home. More than half of Americans live in single-family dwellings where, in theory, an EV could be charged, and 63% of all U.S. housing units of every kind have a garage or carport. But any EV owners planning a trip far from home, or who can’t charge at home, must rely on apps to plot an efficient route and ensure they don’t get stranded.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/whats-missing-in-the-electric-vehicle-revolution-enough-places-to-plug-in-except-tesla-11614380406?mod=hp_lead_pos7

First, let's just acknowledge that the Wall Street Journal is not the best place to get your automotive news. The author gets some basic facts wrong about charging, which I talk about at the end*. These are basic charging facts that any experienced EV driver would know.

His thesis is blown away by the very survey he cites. If you actually go to the Plug In America survey, the very first item in the summary says, "EV drivers are very satisfied with their vehicles, with 96% reporting that they are likely to purchase an EV as their next vehicle." That doesn't sound like people who are horribly frustrated with the charging experience. I'll link the survey below.

For the part of the survey he does use he says, "These problems were worse for respondents who drove non-Tesla vehicles; almost 60% of those reported issues. The most common complaint was a non-functional charger." The actual number was 54%, not 60%. And the most common complaint was a non-functional charger, which is no big deal. You just move to the next stall and use a different charger. I'm sure most of us have had the same experience with a broken gas pump.

The article did get some things right. It's true that Tesla has a much better charging network than the rest. And a Tesla charges up to five times faster than a Bolt. But other manufacturers will catch up quickly. Charging is not rocket science. It mostly uses technology that has been around for 100 years.

Non-functional chargers used to be a problem. Back in 2017 and 2018 I had to plan for that possibility on long trips. But they are much more reliable now. I can't remember the last time I was unable to charge. And you can always check on plugshare.com to see if a charger is out of order.

I'm calling BS on a 30 hour trip that took him 58 hours. Even in a Bolt, that just doesn't happen. Any day he drove six hours or less would have been the same trip time as a gas car. The reason is because on the first stop you will eat lunch while charging and you probably would have stopped for food in a gas car as well. It's only once you get beyond about six hours that a gas car starts to beat an EV. In a Tesla, charging is much faster so it's practically a non-issue.

To make such a trip, you would likely break it up into at least 3 days of driving. That's true whether in a gas car or electric. So you would stay overnight in a hotel with a charger and start each day with a full battery. Then you make 2 or 3 charging stops each day. And it's only the 2nd and 3rd stops that cost you time relative to a gas car. Assuming it's 3 stops per day for 3 days, that's about 90 minutes per day for the two extra stops. So a super-long trip in a Bolt takes about 4 to 5 hours longer than a gas car. And that's a very extreme case in a car that charges very slowly.

Yes, we do need a lot more charging stations and I'm glad that Biden has pledged to fund 500,000 new chargers. But it's not so much because people can't find a place to charge today.

Surveys show that when people notice chargers available then they are more likely to consider an EV. But chargers are usually located in inconspicuous areas of a parking lot or even in back of a store. If you aren't looking for chargers you don't notice them. So by building a lot more chargers people will notice them, which will drive EV adoption.

I'd also like to mention that the build-out of charging infrastructure is a whole lot easier than it was to build out gasoline infrastructure. The grid is already everywhere and chargers are little more than glorified extension cords. But to build out gas stations you had to buy expensive real estate, dig underground storage tanks, and set up an entire refining and distribution system to get fuel from oil well to your car.

Putting chargers in place for the shift to EVs is a piece of cake.

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* The article says that home charging tops out at 7.2kW, which is wrong. My home charging station goes up to 9.6kW. "Home" charging is actually split into Level 1 and Level 2. Level 1 just uses an ordinary 120V AC plug. Level 2 is probably what the author means here by "home" charging. This is 240V AC charging, and rates above 7.2kW are very, very common. The fastest home chargers can go all the way up to 19.2kW, though you probably wouldn't install one in a private residence.

* The article also says that "Fast charging is 50kw and up." This is also wrong. "Fast charging" is defined as anything that uses direct current. You will see the term "DCFC", for DC Fast charging. Furthermore, DCFC units start at 25kW, not 50kW. 25kW units are typically found at dealerships. The highest DCFC units currently in the US go up to 350kW.

The survey:

https://pluginamerica.org/about-us/electric-vehicle-survey/

jumbo shrimp wrote:

Fat hurts wrote:

First, let's just acknowledge that the Wall Street Journal is not the best place to get your automotive news. The author gets some basic facts wrong about charging, which I talk about at the end*. These are basic charging facts that any experienced EV driver would know.

His thesis is blown away by the very survey he cites. If you actually go to the Plug In America survey, the very first item in the summary says, "EV drivers are very satisfied with their vehicles, with 96% reporting that they are likely to purchase an EV as their next vehicle." That doesn't sound like people who are horribly frustrated with the charging experience. I'll link the survey below.

For the part of the survey he does use he says, "These problems were worse for respondents who drove non-Tesla vehicles; almost 60% of those reported issues. The most common complaint was a non-functional charger." The actual number was 54%, not 60%. And the most common complaint was a non-functional charger, which is no big deal. You just move to the next stall and use a different charger. I'm sure most of us have had the same experience with a broken gas pump.

The article did get some things right. It's true that Tesla has a much better charging network than the rest. And a Tesla charges up to five times faster than a Bolt. But other manufacturers will catch up quickly. Charging is not rocket science. It mostly uses technology that has been around for 100 years.

Non-functional chargers used to be a problem. Back in 2017 and 2018 I had to plan for that possibility on long trips. But they are much more reliable now. I can't remember the last time I was unable to charge. And you can always check on plugshare.com to see if a charger is out of order.

I'm calling BS on a 30 hour trip that took him 58 hours. Even in a Bolt, that just doesn't happen. Any day he drove six hours or less would have been the same trip time as a gas car. The reason is because on the first stop you will eat lunch while charging and you probably would have stopped for food in a gas car as well. It's only once you get beyond about six hours that a gas car starts to beat an EV. In a Tesla, charging is much faster so it's practically a non-issue.

To make such a trip, you would likely break it up into at least 3 days of driving. That's true whether in a gas car or electric. So you would stay overnight in a hotel with a charger and start each day with a full battery. Then you make 2 or 3 charging stops each day. And it's only the 2nd and 3rd stops that cost you time relative to a gas car. Assuming it's 3 stops per day for 3 days, that's about 90 minutes per day for the two extra stops. So a super-long trip in a Bolt takes about 4 to 5 hours longer than a gas car. And that's a very extreme case in a car that charges very slowly.

Yes, we do need a lot more charging stations and I'm glad that Biden has pledged to fund 500,000 new chargers. But it's not so much because people can't find a place to charge today.

Surveys show that when people notice chargers available then they are more likely to consider an EV. But chargers are usually located in inconspicuous areas of a parking lot or even in back of a store. If you aren't looking for chargers you don't notice them. So by building a lot more chargers people will notice them, which will drive EV adoption.

I'd also like to mention that the build-out of charging infrastructure is a whole lot easier than it was to build out gasoline infrastructure. The grid is already everywhere and chargers are little more than glorified extension cords. But to build out gas stations you had to buy expensive real estate, dig underground storage tanks, and set up an entire refining and distribution system to get fuel from oil well to your car.

Putting chargers in place for the shift to EVs is a piece of cake.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* The article says that home charging tops out at 7.2kW, which is wrong. My home charging station goes up to 9.6kW. "Home" charging is actually split into Level 1 and Level 2. Level 1 just uses an ordinary 120V AC plug. Level 2 is probably what the author means here by "home" charging. This is 240V AC charging, and rates above 7.2kW are very, very common. The fastest home chargers can go all the way up to 19.2kW, though you probably wouldn't install one in a private residence.

* The article also says that "Fast charging is 50kw and up." This is also wrong. "Fast charging" is defined as anything that uses direct current. You will see the term "DCFC", for DC Fast charging. Furthermore, DCFC units start at 25kW, not 50kW. 25kW units are typically found at dealerships. The highest DCFC units currently in the US go up to 350kW.

The survey:

https://pluginamerica.org/about-us/electric-vehicle-survey/

That sure does sound like a lot of planning to take a trip. Lol With my gas hog all I do is load up my stuff and go. I don’t have to plan where to eat or gas up. Don’t have to stop to find a location with a charger and then wait 2 or more hours to charge. That is if the charger isn’t already taken or broken. I can gas up in 5 minutes not 2 hours and get food to go. I’d much rather spend that time at my destination rather than sitting at a charging station in the back of some parking lot or spending time driving off route looking for a working unoccupied charger. I don’t have to plan my stay to make sure I have access to a charger. What a hassle. Things will be better in a few years but EVs aren’t ready for prime time yet. They will be one day. Now it is very inconvenient to have one and very frustrating.

Fat hurts wrote:

jumbo shrimp wrote:

That sure does sound like a lot of planning to take a trip. Lol With my gas hog all I do is load up my stuff and go. I don’t have to plan where to eat or gas up. Don’t have to stop to find a location with a charger and then wait 2 or more hours to charge. That is if the charger isn’t already taken or broken. I can gas up in 5 minutes not 2 hours and get food to go. I’d much rather spend that time at my destination rather than sitting at a charging station in the back of some parking lot or spending time driving off route looking for a working unoccupied charger. I don’t have to plan my stay to make sure I have access to a charger. What a hassle. Things will be better in a few years but EVs aren’t ready for prime time yet. They will be one day. Now it is very inconvenient to have one and very frustrating.

Trips used to take a lot of planning, but not any more. If you are in a Tesla you can just jump in the car and tell it where you want to go. It will plan all your stops for you and even reroute you to a different supercharger site in the rare event that chargers are crowded.

For other EVs, the planning tools have gotten really sophisticated. Sites like plugshare.com and abetterrouteplanner.com do essentially the same thing as Tesla but it's not integrated into the car.

I don't know where you get 2 hour stops. Even in a Bolt you never have to charge more than 1 hour. Typical stops are less than 20 minutes.

But sure, if you can't deal with the fact that long trips take a little bit longer in an EV then don't buy one.

However, if you buy a gas car you are still an idiot because you'll be wasting time at the smelly gas station every week, and just generally driving an inferior car that will cost you thousands more each year.

jumbo shrimp wrote:

Fat hurts wrote:

Trips used to take a lot of planning, but not any more. If you are in a Tesla you can just jump in the car and tell it where you want to go. It will plan all your stops for you and even reroute you to a different supercharger site in the rare event that chargers are crowded.

For other EVs, the planning tools have gotten really sophisticated. Sites like plugshare.com and abetterrouteplanner.com do essentially the same thing as Tesla but it's not integrated into the car.

I don't know where you get 2 hour stops. Even in a Bolt you never have to charge more than 1 hour. Typical stops are less than 20 minutes.

But sure, if you can't deal with the fact that long trips take a little bit longer in an EV then don't buy one.

However, if you buy a gas car you are still an idiot because you'll be wasting time at the smelly gas station every week, and just generally driving an inferior car that will cost you thousands more each year.

Sounds like quite a hassle. Lol. I just jump in my gas car and go. Don’t have to take detours to get charged up for a couple hours. Checking websites to find somewhere to charge? Don’t need that. Just go. Ooof. Very inconvenient. I’d rather spend that extra time at my destination sipping drinks on the beach not spending that precious time waiting for the bozo in front of me to finish charging and then having to wait another couple of hours charging mine. EVs aren’t quite ready yet. The hassle factor and frustration factor are still too high. In a few years it will be better. Battery prices will drop and get better. But now it is so inconvenient and frustrating to have an EV.

Fat hurts wrote:

jumbo shrimp wrote:

Sounds like quite a hassle. Lol. I just jump in my gas car and go. Don’t have to take detours to get charged up for a couple hours. Checking websites to find somewhere to charge? Don’t need that. Just go. Ooof. Very inconvenient. I’d rather spend that extra time at my destination sipping drinks on the beach not spending that precious time waiting for the bozo in front of me to finish charging and then having to wait another couple of hours charging mine. EVs aren’t quite ready yet. The hassle factor and frustration factor are still too high. In a few years it will be better. Battery prices will drop and get better. But now it is so inconvenient and frustrating to have an EV.

You'll be spending time on the side of the road broken down while I'm the one sipping drinks.

Say hi to the mechanic for me. I won't be seeing him any more because I drive an EV.

jumbo shrimp wrote:

Fat hurts wrote:

You'll be spending time on the side of the road broken down while I'm the one sipping drinks.

Say hi to the mechanic for me. I won't be seeing him any more because I drive an EV.

That reminds me of the countless times I’ve heard of people forgetting to charge their EV at home overnight and waking up with no juice. Then having to wait endless hours with an at home charger. So frustrating. Cant just pour a bit of gas from the lawnmower can in or get a buddy to run to the gas station. Got to wait it out for that inconvenient charge. That’s the case if you are lucky enough to live somewhere that you can charge at home. If not you’ve got to do a lot of planning for charging. Most EV owners today are at the mercy of sparse often broken public chargers. Don’t get me started on those. Lol. If you have a lot of extra time and don’t mind being inconvenienced then the EVs of today might be okay for you. I couldn’t imagine how frustrated people are who have had this problem and worse for several years. If you dont want to be frustrated or very inconvenienced then wait until EVs are ready for prime time. They’ll get there in a few years but are nowhere ready yet.