but the Russians are fighting Nazis in Ukraine!
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Precious Roy wrote:
agip wrote:
I think RU might have made a mistake buying Iranian weapons. Now Israel wants to play too, because it needs to be at the bleeding edge of defending against drones. It can test its weapons in Ukraine.
After months of stalling, Iran has pulled Israel into the war. Expect lots of very high tech anti-drone weapons to arrive in Kiev by the end of the year. Hope they work.
This has been a matter of controversy within the Israeli government. Some MPs are pushing the PM to go in whole hog on providing Ukraine iron dome and weapons because of Iran's involvement. But the official line from the Israeli government has been that they support Ukraine, but are not going to provide iron dome or other weapons. The latest is that Israel will provide air attack alert systems and intel on Iran's drones, but nothing that will actually shoot down incoming missiles, drones, etc.
Some in the Israeli government are concerned that strong support for Ukraine may cause RU to crack down on Jews in Russia. Netanyahu's faction basically takes an Israel First tack. They see Israel as having no interest in the conflict and do not want to make any sacrifices for Ukraine. They also have some sympathy for Russia's position that they have a right to freely invade sovereign nations when they feel like they are threatened because that is what Israel likes to do to its neighbors.
In the end, I think the real consideration keeping Israel on the fence is the fear that Russia would not give Israel freedom of action in Syria. There has been a tacit agreement with RU and Israel to allow Israel to carry out limited strikes on Syria if they thought Syria was developing WMDs or taking on an offensive posture near Golan. But it is very interesting politically considering that Ukraine's PM is Jewish and Russia has a long history of being a very bad place for Jews.
good post. Sounds like there is internal disagreement.
I'd add one thing - would be deeply weird for Jews to defend Ukraine after the million Jewish Ukrainians murdered there less than 100 years ago. But times do change.
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carmine9 wrote:
MelRunner wrote:
I'll jump in on this, because I was there in the Persian Gulf during Desert Storm. Israel stayed out, because the Bush administration had built a coalition of Arab/Muslim states to help fight against Iraq. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, UAE, etc were on our side. All of that might have fallen apart if Israel had retaliated against Iraq. That is what Saddam was hoping for when he kept launching Scuds at Israel.
Ukraine is obviously not the same situation as the Persian Gulf War, which was a coalition of US, European, and Muslim nations, against a Muslim nation. There won't be pressure for Israel to stay out. With Iran helping Russia we would more likely welcome Israeli support for Ukraine.
Pressure to keep Israel out?
WTF?
Israel never fights in these ME wars that are being fought for their benefit.
Their lives matter; nobody elses do
Dumb comment. Israel fought in 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars.
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Do you guys think Kherson will fall before the end of the year? The ukrainians seem to be desparately trying to take it before winter.
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Officialdb wrote:
Do you guys think Kherson will fall before the end of the year? The ukrainians seem to be desparately trying to take it before winter.
Most likely. Russia has shown very little ability to control territory, and throwing 300,000 untrained, under equipped meatbags at the problem is unlikely to change the situation. The real question is, will Russian troops be able to make an orderly withdrawal and take most of their equipment with them? Or, will they get routed like the did around Izyium and be forced to leave hundreds of tanks and other armored equipment behind?
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Officialdb wrote:
Do you guys think Kherson will fall before the end of the year? The ukrainians seem to be desparately trying to take it before winter.
Your commenting on Ukraine the U.S. media commented on Viet Nam Conflict. Who cares about success in one town. U.S. has gone chips in and bought a stalemate. U.S. & N.A.T.O. are wasting resources and lives and will achieve nothing. Nothing benefiting U.S. has occurred in regard to Ukraine in a year.
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agip wrote:
Precious Roy wrote:
This has been a matter of controversy within the Israeli government. Some MPs are pushing the PM to go in whole hog on providing Ukraine iron dome and weapons because of Iran's involvement. But the official line from the Israeli government has been that they support Ukraine, but are not going to provide iron dome or other weapons. The latest is that Israel will provide air attack alert systems and intel on Iran's drones, but nothing that will actually shoot down incoming missiles, drones, etc.
Some in the Israeli government are concerned that strong support for Ukraine may cause RU to crack down on Jews in Russia. Netanyahu's faction basically takes an Israel First tack. They see Israel as having no interest in the conflict and do not want to make any sacrifices for Ukraine. They also have some sympathy for Russia's position that they have a right to freely invade sovereign nations when they feel like they are threatened because that is what Israel likes to do to its neighbors.
In the end, I think the real consideration keeping Israel on the fence is the fear that Russia would not give Israel freedom of action in Syria. There has been a tacit agreement with RU and Israel to allow Israel to carry out limited strikes on Syria if they thought Syria was developing WMDs or taking on an offensive posture near Golan. But it is very interesting politically considering that Ukraine's PM is Jewish and Russia has a long history of being a very bad place for Jews.
good post. Sounds like there is internal disagreement.
I'd add one thing - would be deeply weird for Jews to defend Ukraine after the million Jewish Ukrainians murdered there less than 100 years ago. But times do change.
What Jews are defending Ukraine?
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Femboi wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
Pressure to keep Israel out?
WTF?
Israel never fights in these ME wars that are being fought for their benefit.
Their lives matter; nobody elses do
Dumb comment. Israel fought in 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars.
Yes they did launch 3 illegal wars of aggression but the last one was 50 years ago.
They now have the USA and NATO fighting their wars for them
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Cold War warrior 2 wrote:
Officialdb wrote:
Do you guys think Kherson will fall before the end of the year? The ukrainians seem to be desparately trying to take it before winter.
Your commenting on Ukraine the U.S. media commented on Viet Nam Conflict. Who cares about success in one town. U.S. has gone chips in and bought a stalemate. U.S. & N.A.T.O. are wasting resources and lives and will achieve nothing. Nothing benefiting U.S. has occurred in regard to Ukraine in a year.
Perhaps the United States believes there is benefit in gluing together some cracks in the NATO alliance that Trump's fat self caused. Perhaps they believe there is benefit in having some of their weapons and military tech deployed in live action to assess effectiveness. Perhaps they believe there is benefit in having the Russian military depleted, and the Russian citizens (now that conscription has begun) realizing that Putin's imperialism has real costs to them.
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carmine9 wrote:
Femboi wrote:
Dumb comment. Israel fought in 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars.
Yes they did launch 3 illegal wars of aggression but the last one was 50 years ago.
They now have the USA and NATO fighting their wars for them
Another dumb comment. Israel is not a member of NATO, neither the USA nor any other NATO member is going to fight for Israel. USA and NATO fight for their own interests.
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Femboi wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
Yes they did launch 3 illegal wars of aggression but the last one was 50 years ago.
They now have the USA and NATO fighting their wars for them
Another dumb comment. Israel is not a member of NATO, neither the USA nor any other NATO member is going to fight for Israel. USA and NATO fight for their own interests.
Why did NATO invade Iraq?
Is it in Europe?
Or is it near Israel?
All of America's wars since the 1980s have been fought for Israel
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When you are creating a Jewish state in a land with few Jews, you need to convince Jews to move there and you need to get the land.
Odd how Israel kept getting all this added land in these wars they launched
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carmine9 wrote:
Why did NATO invade Iraq?
Is it in Europe?
Or is it near Israel?
All of America's wars since the 1980s have been fought for Israel
Another false comment. Just for example, Desert Storm was to push Iraq out of Kuwait. And the invasion of Afghanistan was intended to seek and defang AQ in retaliation for 9/11.
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HowToTellLollyIsLying? wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
So you see no problem with state lies, wars being fought and people dying for profit and career advancement.
You have become a total slave in your mind
Nope. We all want peace in Ukraine. All Russian soldiers need to do is march their pathetic selves back to Russia. Once that happens, no more "people dying for profit and career advancement." You do support this plan, right? Or are you in favor of more "people
dying for profit and career advancement"?Carmine, you never commented on whether you support Russia’s immediate withdrawal or more "people dying for profit and career advancement"? I’ll assume it’s because you support more "people dying for profit and career advancement" until you confirm that an immediate Russian withdrawal is a better option.
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carmine9 wrote:
Femboi wrote:
Another dumb comment. Israel is not a member of NATO, neither the USA nor any other NATO member is going to fight for Israel. USA and NATO fight for their own interests.
Why did NATO invade Iraq?
Is it in Europe?
Or is it near Israel?
All of America's wars since the 1980s have been fought for Israel
First NATO didn't invade Iraq, remember France opposed the war and many people boycotted french fries...lol. As if we import potatoes from France. As far as the war being for Israel, that theory has been thoroughly debunked here
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carmine9 wrote:
When you are creating a Jewish state in a land with few Jews, you need to convince Jews to move there and you need to get the land.
Odd how Israel kept getting all this added land in these wars they launched
The greatest friend Israel ever had.
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carmine9 wrote:
agip wrote:
good post. Sounds like there is internal disagreement.
I'd add one thing - would be deeply weird for Jews to defend Ukraine after the million Jewish Ukrainians murdered there less than 100 years ago. But times do change.
What Jews are defending Ukraine?
I hear this Volodymyr Zelenskyy guy is Jewish and pretty pro-Ukraine.
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