I'm glad Sage reported this. His report wasn't the only report. I think there are at least three or four reports, probably more. I hope USADA can take action on admitted PED use.
Hey thanks for the support guys, much appreciated!
I've been strict about #cleansport ever since I got out of college and became sponsored and realized that doping was a big issue....not just for my personal "pay day and career" but for the integrity and principles of the sport. Here we are busting our balls running 100-140 miles per week looking for the slightest marginal gains naturally and the dopers come in and get that extra 1-5% easy. I ran against EPO cheats (Christian and Eddy etc.), who stole prize money...many "B-level E. Africans" cleaning up left and right. Then I stated ultra-trail running:
I fought against guys that cut swtichbacks on the trails at UTMB and those that don't carry mandatory gear and/or get illegal outside aid station support when it is against the rules of all these races. EPO cheats in the top 10 at UTMB... and then welcomed back with open arms 2 years later...
Call me crazy, but the whole point of endurance sport is that it's hard. It's a personal physical and mental challenge, but it's also a competitive race where your relative performance effects other people. Yeah, as you get older (I'm 40 now) the recovery time and testosterone levels and Vo2max naturally start to drop. I can't run now like I did when I was 25 or 30. That's part of the demands of the sport, aging, and high mileage training!
And now as a "part-time Influencer-Coach" too, I think the Influencers should be held way more accountable. Many are making more money off the sport than sponsored pros. And it comes down to their relative performances and likeness and image too! They are shaping the future "culture of the sport" and if they are making doping seem like it's not a big deal (and normalizing that "the rules don't apply to me culture") than I'm going to fight it with all my might.
So of course I did "target" Cam Hanes. There is a certain amount of responsibility that comes with a large social media following when you're saying you're taking banned PEDs and you're nearing American Record territory for your Age Group at the Marathon and finishing in the top 20 at Cocodona 250 even (last year he did).
And then what about Boston Qualifiers? Marathon Majors Age Group times? Ultra- lottery qualifications?
The amount of "hate comments" I've gotten just on Instagram from all this is astounding. It actually makes me think ultra-trail running is way more dirty than I initially thought (And at all levels too!).
To make matters worse (And if you keep reporting Cam to USADA that may help create some change and precedent...hopefully), you've got individuals like Jamil Coury of Aravaipa Running still "liking" Cam's latest instagram posts and content. (If you don't know 'Aravaipa Running" is like the UTMB monopoly of US trail running ultras...from the Cocodona 250 to Golden Ticket Race like Black Canyon 100km and the Javelina Jundred). His brother actually has the US Men's Record for 24hrs. I myself like to do their races and have entered the Cocodona 250 lottery (a "lottery" that will favor previous runners like Cam Hanes) price tag is $2200 USD all in FYI. But in the past I've done Black Canyon and Javelina and am looking at Desert Solstice etc.
Finally Cam has dipped his media profiles into associating with the likes of not only Courtney Dauwalter and Rachel Entrekin...but also getting likes from Emma Coburn etc. You can see him seem snug on the starting line and promoted by Aravaipa running media (Mountain Outpost) with other "Influencers" like Andy Glaze and Eli Wehbe (to name a few) saying "he's thankful his body allowed him to be there."
Interestingly (but I guess not surprisingly) is some of the most common "push-back" comments I get from his followers (besides one wishing I "ran off a cliff in my next race") was that I'm a "Nerd and Geek!". Well I didn't really know that was a big insult at this day and age..but guilty as charged! Others like to say I'm a "b!atch" (that's usually family guys with little daughters in their profile pic) and a "tattletale" or a "snitch"...um, like are we still in 5th grade or something?? (or is that where their mind stayed over the decades)? In any case many also appear to be on PEDs and probably see it as a personal attack on their "manlihood" or whatever?
Oh, but Cam's a "big man" still because he's going to try to hunt and kill a Bear this month!! (that's beside the point and not a logical argument to his doping, but imo a relevant trait to his "character" imo). Like even as a vegan I understand hunting (deer and elk) can be sustainable and help feed a family. But c'mon A Bear?! That's just "trophy hunting" imo.
In any case. If you support the anti-doping culture. Report him to USADA (And see my latest Instagram posts for more context). Really, the running community on here at least seems to be mostly grounded and intelligent...and I really appreciate and respect that!! So thank you!!
It seems to me that there has been a dramatic shift over the past 25 years in many aspects of life, with the importance of personal integrity steadily declining. Part of this can be attributed to broader societal and institutional decay. Another factor is the rise of narcissism among a significant portion of the population. Social media has been a major driver of this trend, as has a generational shift away from traditional values that emphasized a less self-focused worldview.
Ultra-running appears to be symptomatic of this broader cultural trend. Running extreme distances, displaying personal branding through tattoos, documenting every aspect of one's running and personal life on YouTube, and using legal, semi-legal, or illegal substances to enhance performance and attract attention can all come across as prideful, self-promotional, and pretentious.
A heartbreaking story is currently unfolding that’s sure to have devastating ramifications for years to come. Just moments ago, without any warning, the worst person…
To give Moi credit, on their most recent episode they opened the pod by bringing it up again and trying to laugh off how much engagement the last episode got in the comments, and give Matt and Adam an opportunity to comment as they weren't on the previous episode. Matt literally said nothing, and then Adam gave a pretty hand-wavy answer, somebody brought up people's Dads again and how confusing the USADA website is to figure out what's banned (I feel like a good rule of thumb is if you are using a syringe, that's probably something you should at least be wary of, but I digress...).
Anyway, Moi showed up like 30 minutes into the episode, after they had moved on. He said he had done some research and then had a very fair take, called Cam out for continuing to claim to be a "bow hunter", said he needed to pick a lane. And then when somebody brought up how Cam had admitted he used it so probably didn't realize it was wrong, Moi pushed back to the effect of, "yeah but when he was told it was against the rules, he didn't apologize, he doubled down and said it didn't matter."
So fair play to Moi for trying to educate himself on what actually happened and being willing to have an opinion. The dialogue during his segment was definitely the most interesting and real.
Adam brought up a couple times that their podcast is literally just conversations they have while out running as a way of explaining why their takes might be uninformed or lack detail. I respect that and honestly that's the main appeal of their show. There is very little agenda, they just shoot the sh*t and let Seth call Ben Dhiman and Rachel Entrekin out. It's great entertainment and usually very down to earth.
And credit to them to be willing to actually bring it up not once but twice now. The fact that 4 of the 5 dudes have kind of missed the mark in most peoples' eyes here on this thread is what it is.
For what it's worth, I think the ambivalence shown by the Boys and other media personalities is emblamatic of how most folks view the issue, and that we certainly are in an echo chamber on this thread. Among my own group of trail buddies, who range from 35-55 years old, the majority are kinda like, "eh whatever" or "peptides being banned is just big Pharma trying to keep us from stuff that works..."
All that said, thanks again Sage, unfortunately being right and being popular are not often possible together.
What struck me about the original boulder boys video is the disconnect Seth and Drew had to the average runner. Seth talking about his dad not knowing if he takes a banned substance. And Drew saying basically elites train the hardest and we should only pay attention to them for clean sport. The average runner puts in a lot of time for marginal gains. Most People don’t want to face a bunch of bros cheating with test and peptides. Drew was blessed with the running genes. He doesn’t work any harder. In fact I know for a fact his training volume is low relative to his skill. Perhaps as sage says they may care more when they’re older.
I'm just concerned this is playing out the way Cam's boys are hoping--the news cycle moves fast and this issue is fading fast. Some people have reached out to race companies. To their credit, they responded, but it's just "we got your letter, thanks for your comments." I'm sure the race companies are just using a standard form letter and nothing will be done. I've seen people mention their interactions with race companies on reddit as well, which is nice, but still. Need a black swan moment or something to really effect change.
Someone upthread mentioned a good point--the boulder boys talk about 35-55 y/o guys who are just blase about the whole thing. While I get that, it will just ruin trail running and ultras long-term IMO. I may be wrong.
Sage's best comment is bolded. NIL is also a huge issue, I know that's more pro sports like football/basketball but I could see its effects on running and social media.
And now as a "part-time Influencer-Coach" too, I think the Influencers should be held way more accountable. Many are making more money off the sport than sponsored pros. And it comes down to their relative performances and likeness and image too! They are shaping the future "culture of the sport" and if they are making doping seem like it's not a big deal (and normalizing that "the rules don't apply to me culture") than I'm going to fight it with all my might.
The collective response to this seems to show that most pro runners really couldn’t care less about non-elite runners. We’re just here to give clicks, buy merch, follow their “journey,” etc.
The collective response to this seems to show that most pro runners really couldn’t care less about non-elite runners. We’re just here to give clicks, buy merch, follow their “journey,” etc.
Opening comments are from start to 11:30-ish. High points below:
-They seem genuinely surprised at gen pop's reaction to the story!
-Relax! We're not professional newspeople or taking notes, etc., 3:45-3:50. Not realistic to test entire field. Cam admitted to taking them.
-One of the commentators' rebuttal--"I should have said doping is bad, but if anyone's been on the global DRO website, there's so many things in the average person's cabinet that are not safe for sport, etc. There is a little nuance to situation. I think his results should be taken away." They said if they took age group award away, that would not affect him really--he still has his $.
-There are things Cam does that are good for the outdoor industry (6:10-ish), he's not intentionally trying to be a bad human, etc. But if you're gonna win AG awards, you should be aware of stuff on a banned list. Not a big deal if he's mentioning it on his pod.
-Golden ticket races are not drug-tested.
-Sage has good intentions and cares about our sport and he has a good heart (7:23-ish), it's been a huge part of his life.
-One guy said--I don't know much about him but he seems decent. Hunting for meat is more honorable than buying it from a grocery store. Can't demonize hunters. It's easier to buy meat, you don't have to think about it.
-Another guy said--if it weren't for Sage calling out, we might still have AGers still taking stuff, etc. Some may want to double-check next time, and it'll raise awareness
-Invite both on to the podcast, they are both similar more than they realize (9:55).
-Sage is commenting at 0300, need to take a rest and comment during the day (Seth). Camille is like that too.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
The collective response to this seems to show that most pro runners really couldn’t care less about non-elite runners. We’re just here to give clicks, buy merch, follow their “journey,” etc.
I was not a “pro” runner, but I was an NCAA and OT qualifier. At the time, I really couldn’t care less about non-elite runners and whether someone running a 2:30’s marathon was doping or even wearing roller blades. But now, as a mid-40’s parent with a full time job, up before dawn every morning working my butt off to try and run those times, I most certainly do care.
The collective response to this seems to show that most pro runners really couldn’t care less about non-elite runners. We’re just here to give clicks, buy merch, follow their “journey,” etc.
I was not a “pro” runner, but I was an NCAA and OT qualifier. At the time, I really couldn’t care less about non-elite runners and whether someone running a 2:30’s marathon was doping or even wearing roller blades. But now, as a mid-40’s parent with a full time job, up before dawn every morning working my butt off to try and run those times, I most certainly do care.
The boulder boys podcast with the new participant who was really against Cam starts at 43:40 and goes to 60:25.
I'm going to save y'all time from listening to the entire podcast, but I listened to some more of it. It's a great pod!
-Cam can win coco if he bowhunts everyone in the crowd (48:24) lolol.
-If he races, don't brag about it (49:10).
-Drew: a lot of folks reminded me that everyone is trying to compete to their best of their ability (WSER in 14 hours or finish at 30, one of the reasons why they do this is because they want to compete). Everyone who listens to this pod--we are trying to get the best out of ourselves.
-We are not affected by this, we don't see him as a threat. If this is someone who was a threat, we'd be pissed--he could take a golden ticket from us. A lot of people are pissed because it affects them directly.
-Accept the rules and if you make a mistake, own it. Pick a lane and stay in it (53:21).
-We all disagree on the pod but we're still friends (53:40). We don't live in a perfect world--aid station snafus, people with 50mm stacked shoes. Life is unfair, but it is what it is. (54:15). Maybe if he is stripped of his award it will but we can't even test golden ticket races. It's not feasible to test the entire field. It's not possible. We can demonize people for making mistakes-at least Cam admitted his mistake.
-Counterpoint-Cam said "I don't care." I don't disagree w/what you said, but when you have tons of followers and you make a big mistake, you should accept that. Own your idea (55:30-ish). Don't call names, don't just say "I'm a bowhunter and just stay in shape."
-Cam is 58--he relates to Gen-Zs and older than us (35-55) guys (57:08), give him a break. I think we are too quick to judge him. A peptide? Screw him (57:20). We disagree with other people in ultrarunning but are still cool with them.
-We shouldn't focus on the narrow, myopic case.
-It matters he's an influencer (58:20). If he was 20th place, nobody would be talking about it. But he's popular. It carries an amount of weight and responsibility.
-We talk about this on runs (59:14). Friends in my ears. I don't need to get around conversations. I'm glad we can talk about convos, talk with nuance. Ignore dumb comments.
keep in mind if Sage and cam hanes were in the same room, Sage would tower over cam. it doesnt matter how much lateral growth cam has in his arms and chest.
Sage has over half a foot of vertical dominance over cam. cam will never confront Sage in person because he would have to look up at him.
seriously pathetic that cam and his gigachad followers resort to ad hominem attacks and death threats against Sage.
Pretty sure I saw a video of Cam Haines putting up 19 reps @ 225 aka 2-plates on the bench. Even for someone that's not natty, that's crazy high strength for someone his age. Don't think Cam has much to worry about.
I don’t think he was suggesting Sage was going to hurt Cam, just embarrassingly mog him.
I saw above that golden ticket race winners are not tested - is it also true western states no longer tests (just reserves the right to test and will honor bans)? is western states and ultra running just turning into enhanced games for professional runner drop outs and old dudes? can’t get any of these ultra runners other that Sage to take a stand here…
I saw above that golden ticket race winners are not tested - is it also true western states no longer tests (just reserves the right to test and will honor bans)? is western states and ultra running just turning into enhanced games for professional runner drop outs and old dudes? can’t get any of these ultra runners other that Sage to take a stand here…
There was drug testing at the Aravaipa golden ticket races for the top ticket winners at least last year. Not at utmb golden ticket races though at least recently.
had to unfollow the pod after listening to this. usually enjoy their cadence. this was really unreflective and does not take doping as seriously as pros should probably take it.
Just discovered this thread. This thread just screams Beta BIG time. Cam Hanes isn’t even a runner. He is a bow hunter. He can take whatever. Sage is the professional and he just sounds a bit uptight and beta.
PSA: “Beta” is considered a very cringy reference to make. That’s been the case for over a year.
I saw above that golden ticket race winners are not tested - is it also true western states no longer tests (just reserves the right to test and will honor bans)? is western states and ultra running just turning into enhanced games for professional runner drop outs and old dudes? can’t get any of these ultra runners other that Sage to take a stand here…
There was drug testing at the Aravaipa golden ticket races for the top ticket winners at least last year. Not at utmb golden ticket races though at least recently.
Any evidence for this? I’m very skeptical particularly with their embrace of Cam, and profit motives.
Just discovered this thread. This thread just screams Beta BIG time. Cam Hanes isn’t even a runner. He is a bow hunter. He can take whatever. Sage is the professional and he just sounds a bit uptight and beta.
As a 50-something, I will say that a taking peptides and TRT at my age (to have big biceps while you run fast) is about the most beta thing I can imagine. It shows someone is so weak that they are afraid to do be truly natty — willing to do the hard work for the sake of the pursuit rather than the clicks.
Oh nooo Camcam is going to see this new investigation and post another dozen instagram stories about how he doesn’t give an eff and how tough he is and bow hunting and doping is ok if it heals your injuries
Oh nooo Camcam is going to see this new investigation and post another dozen instagram stories about how he doesn’t give an eff and how tough he is and bow hunting and doping is ok if it heals your injuries
I hope so. He'll help us ensure folks keeping talking about this issue.
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