Easy transition into flats

one more question i have is should this easy barefoot grass running be in addition to what we are normally doing or as like an after the workout?

seeing as it seems like many of us make the transition to flats after injury, we may be only doing like 15 minutes of running a day. So would we want to just do all that running barefoot (or in spikes) or would we add the barefoot running to what we are already doing?

i guess if one had a three mile cooldown they could just do there cool down barefoot.

just some ideas & or suggestions would probably be very helpful for alot of us in my opinion.

What???? wrote:

Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking when I first posted. I also have orthodics that I wear with my running shoes on all training runs. I usually wear the orthodics with my shoes besides running. What is your suggestion about those, I'm sure this changes my transition. Thanks.

What's the desired purpose of the orthodics? It would likely involve phasing them out.

What???? wrote:

Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking when I first posted. I also have orthodics that I wear with my running shoes on all training runs. I usually wear the orthodics with my shoes besides running. What is your suggestion about those, I'm sure this changes my transition. Thanks.

trackhead is cringing for taking the time to give you a blueprint for making the transition and then you drop a crying game bomb on him...you wear orthotics? Orthotics are the biggest racket in all of medicine (is it really considered medicine?). Just go with the same transition crackhead told you but lose the orthotics in your trainers as you drop down. Just make sure you get a pair of H streets or I retract the above statement.

Tim Grose wrote:

What I have yet to read is whether switching from trainers to flats has ultimately improved people's racing performances?

I switched to flats last Dec. (been training in the Puma H Streets since June), and have seen drastic improvements. I'm a woman who has dropped my 5K road race PR down from 18:29 (Oct. 2003) to 17:51 (Sept. 2004), and I also was able to run 36:22 for 10K road race and 55:46 15K this fall. Before the switch to flats I had never been able to run more than 63 miles/week without getting injured. Since making the switch, I've been over 70 miles/week since June. I contribute the flats with allowing me to stay healthy (something I haven't been able to do in 6 years) and have consistent training. I train AND race in the Puma's.

Regarding the "stress fracture" guy.... What were you thinking?!?! 90 miles/week when switching over to flats isn't exactly a "safe" transition. You should have cut your mileage/intensity down! With any new "stress" you should be somewhat conservative. Our bones are constantly remodeling-- if you overstress them at a time when they're "weak" (hence-- running downhill under 5 min. pace with other runners!), they're likely to give. Extra "Cushioning" isn't going to reduce the force. Read below:

From Lore of Running: "The softness of the midsole has no marked effect on landing forces during running (T.E. Clarke et al,1983b; Frederick,1986; Nigg et al., 1987). It seems that runners alter their gaits and muscle activation patterns (Komi et al., 1987) when running in harder shoes or when running barefoot. Thus, the degree of pronation is reduced when one runs barefoot (Frederick, 1986; L.S. Smith et al., 1986), a reduction due to changes in running patterns...."

Surface doesn't matter either -- you adjust your biomechanics in such a way when going from one surface to another that force varies very little. I had 7 stress fractures in regular trainers and orthotics while training on mostly grass/dirt, but have had no serious injuries in the flats on all surface-- BUT, most importantly I made a gradual transition to the flats to let my body adjust.

As far as "how to transition", like trackhead mentioned, most people who successfully make the transition do it when coming off an injury (what I did) or when their in between season and not training seriously. If you're already at high mileage, it would probably be safe to cut your mileage/intensity back, say 10-15%. You're going to be sore for weeks or months (calves/feet), so just listen to your body. Run on a variety of surfaces-- you may feel that your biomechanics are pretty sloppy at first with something lighter on your feet, but you learn to be more efficient and have more control. Be patient with this. It's all about maintaining a balance and letting your body adapt. If anything is tight (hence, your Achilles might be), slip off your shoes and run barefoot on grass. I swear by this stuff now! Great prevention method. That's about all I can think of.

ghosts racers wrote:

one more question i have is should this easy barefoot grass running be in addition to what we are normally doing or as like an after the workout?

seeing as it seems like many of us make the transition to flats after injury, we may be only doing like 15 minutes of running a day. So would we want to just do all that running barefoot (or in spikes) or would we add the barefoot running to what we are already doing?

i guess if one had a three mile cooldown they could just do there cool down barefoot.

just some ideas & or suggestions would probably be very helpful for alot of us in my opinion.

If you're coming off an injury when making the switch (as I was when I did it) then do your best to have as much of running as possible in a flat or barefoot.

If you're healthy, just include an extra 10-20min of minimal running, and build from there. You're weaning yourself off of the shoes.

jaguar1 wrote:

Regarding the "stress fracture" guy.... What were you thinking?!?! 90 miles/week when switching over to flats isn't exactly a "safe" transition. You should have cut your mileage/intensity down!

Jaguar 1:

I'd been running six weeks exclusively in flats, but had some time prior in the transition. Zero problems throughout except some calf soreness and absolutely no sign of the injury approaching. I think it is just that above a certain threshold of stressing my feet -- 90 miles with significant intensity -- and the breakdown of my NB 750s in a particular way so that there was a large hole in the eva under the 2nd metatarsul -- that the old foot just gave out.

I agree that bulky trainers can screw up our natural running gait and teach lazy running habits. I also agree that for most people there are performance enhancements and injury reductions to be gained through switching to training in lower shoes. And I'm personally never going back to bulky trainers. But -- and this is key -- for very high intensity high volume training, MY feet require a bit of protection, about as much as you get from the NB 900s. I've read the scientific studies you cite and the reduction in foot stress in barefoot v. shod running appears to come from fine-tuned biomechanical efficiencies/responses that are masked by bulky trainers. But there are no studies on the comparative forces experienced by ALREADY efficient runners. I'm about as efficient as you get. Zero bio-mech irregularities. Fast runners are always training right at the edge of injury. If you're running long runs at sub 7 pace, and substantial miles at sub 6:00 pace (and lots close to sub 5 pace), I think you need all the help you can get. So I claim this: a low trainer like the NB 900 affords a bit more protection than flats in fast efficient runners. For sub 16 training, sure I could do it all in flats. For sub 15 training, my feet (and experience) tell me this is risky.

Trackhead,

I am doing nearly all of my mileage these days in my ghost racers. I am planning on buying a pair of transitional shoes (lightweight trainers) asics ds trainer or NB 900 and using them for when I run on the roads. I have the ds trainer, but I am going to check out the NB 900 before I make a decision on which one to go with. I don't think right now that it will be good to do alot of mileage on the roads with flats, or ever. I agree with the one poster that we can run in flats, but pavement probably isn't the best place for them. I need to build strength first.

I think I will do my strides in spikes and then start building a couple minutes of running in the spikes until the weather warms to simulate barefoot running.

Is it normal for your feet to be sore when you are switching from a lightweight trainer to flats? Like my feet did not feel sore when I started with flats and now they are kind of sore now that I am starting to incorporate a transitional shoe. Maybe its because I am doing some running on pavement, I feel like its because I am going from no constraints to minimal support from the lightweight trainers. I dunno, any thoughts? I know its normal to be sure when making the shoe.

This is a good thread, very informative to us newbie flat wearers.

gs

What is this "stregthen your feet" crap? There are no muscles between your metatarsuls and the pave, which is critical if you are pounding it day in and day out. I agree that your foot, ankle, and knee complex can act as a shock absorbing device. I agree you can run some miles with next to no shoes. But you can have good form and still run in flexible cushioned shoes. Most of the sub 30 10k runners I know have excellent form, and yes they all run in ordinary or lightweight trainers. All your heros run in those shoes. There are no shortcuts to improvement, other than hard work. If you are pushing to the borders of injury, where most will be running to achieve their best -- wear a no frills shoe that will keep you training through the hard miles. Leave the gimmicks to the slow guys.

Check out the article in this month's RunningTimes about Noguchi vs. Deena. Deena was landing with her footstrike infront of her, essentially braking on every step. Noguchi was landing with her midfoot directly under her center of gravity and lost far less momentum on every step. The author postulated that, had Deena the efficiency of Noguchi, Deena would have won. That's the difference from someone who runs in flats and someone who runs in the Trabucos.

And as far as strengthening your feet, we're talking about muscles within your feet critical for stability and balance. You feel it immediately when you run for about 60min without shoes.

In terms of pavement, I don't know. I have a friend who was using the H Street for about half of his 100-150mpw, and all his road runs (the other runs were in the Limber Up) and loved them.

Seriously trackhead... What does your friend do for a living that gives him time to run 150 miles a wk? Is he elite or does he just run that many miles for the pure joy of running. I'm serious here...

trackhead wrote:

Check out the article in this month's RunningTimes about Noguchi vs. Deena. Deena was landing with her footstrike infront of her, essentially braking on every step. Noguchi was landing with her midfoot directly under her center of gravity and lost far less momentum on every step. The author postulated that, had Deena the efficiency of Noguchi, Deena would have won. That's the difference from someone who runs in flats and someone who runs in the Trabucos.

What makes you think that the problem lies in Deena's shoes? Lots runners have Nagouchi-like efficiency (many of them slower than Deena). What makes you think the soreness of 60 mins barefoot isn't inflammation? I don't buy it. We may be designed to run barefoot, but not to train at an elite level bashing hard surfaces barefoot. Fix your form? -- good idea, but not by running every day year round in spikes.

Running in flats sometimes = okay

Running in flats 100 (fast) miles plus per week = inviting trouble.

out,

johnston

Radiologist wrote:

Seriously trackhead... What does your friend do for a living that gives him time to run 150 miles a wk? Is he elite or does he just run that many miles for the pure joy of running. I'm serious here...

he's a student, and the 150 was just his highest week, most were 100-130. And it really doesn't take that long, it's probably 16-17hrs/wk

The high heel in modern running shoes encourages overextension and heel-crashing.

If Bushmen in Namibia can chase down zebras after hours of barefoot pursuit, we're fine at 15+hrs/wk of running in something thin. All it depends on efficiency and strength.

Again to the soreness, compare the shod runner with the unshod -- the one without their shoes will invariably get farmore follow-through and flexsion

regular shoes inhibit natural motion, even Nike says it now, and that goes against their interests....

Thanks Trackhead... Wow alot of mileage... Amazing that he does all of that in H streets. Does he run on streets?

Sorry Trackhead you did say he runs some in the limber up.

I remember when I was a kid my older brother ran in what I think were the Tiger 81s. I also remember he raced in Oregon waffles. When I asked him about it he said that everyone wore the Tiger 81 and a shoe that looked like the limber up but it was dark navy for most of their work. Bulky shoes just crept up on us.

My first running shoes were the saucony shadow but I don't feel they were the same saucony shadow that they sell today.

Johnston,

What study have you looked at that shows how much and what type of cushioning on the metatarsals is going to be best for everyone? I have yet to find one out there. I don't neccessarily think that I am everyone on this boards hero but I have recently switched to training in flats. I didn't switch because my competitors are training in flats, but because I began to do research on biomechanical studies and decided that my natural foot strike was being limited by stability shoes. The transition has been awesome, I currently run about 60 to 85 miles a week in flats.

I have also worked at a running specialty shop for the past four years so I see people on a daily basis that are being ill advised by Doctors/therapist/podiatrist. People need to be more cautious when thinking about orthotics. Obviously for some people they can be very beneficial but for most people they are not needed.

I encourage everyone to examine their running gait cycle to see if they can benefit by getting rid of the heavy stability shoes and othotics if possible. Unfortunately most shoe stores aren't able to give specialized advice so you will probably want to research on your own unless you can find someone you fully trust.

Sorry to busrt your bubble JOHNSTON but for me:

60 to 80miles a week in flats = best thing I could do for my body.

Running a 100miles a week fast is going to be hard on the body no matter what you are wearing on your foot.

Is the Asics DS Racer considered a minimalist flat? If so is it easy to transition into compared to the less heel shoes?